Evidence for God from Science

Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Word of God incarnate.

There is an account in the Hebrew Scriptures of a man put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. The following is the account:

Numbers 15:3236

32. When the children of Israel were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33. Those who found him gathering wood presented him before Moses and Aaron and before the entire congregation.
34. They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be done to him.
35. The Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; the entire congregation shall pelt him with stones outside the camp.
36. So the entire congregation took him outside the camp, and they pelted him to death with stones, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Jesus said the following about working on the Sabbath:

But when the Pharisees asked why Jesus and His disciples did on the Sabbath "that which is unlawful," Jesus replied: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:24)

However, if Jesus is the Word of God incarnate does that mean that Jesus ordered the death of the man in Numbers 15:32-36?

This question has come up because:

A Muslim made the statement that a Muslim who leaves Islam should be put to death for apostasy. I asked him to show me where Jesus ordered the death of anyone for apostasy. Although the man gathering firewood was not put to death for apostasy, this is how the Muslim answered me.

His comment was: "You believe that Jesus is God. So the law of Moses came from Jesus and therefore Jesus ordered the execution."

I can't seem to think this one through and would appreciate any thoughts from the Christians on G&S.

Thank you.

Christian2 wrote:Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Word of God incarnate.

There is an account in the Hebrew Scriptures of a man put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. The following is the account:

Numbers 15:3236

32. When the children of Israel were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33. Those who found him gathering wood presented him before Moses and Aaron and before the entire congregation.
34. They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be done to him.
35. The Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; the entire congregation shall pelt him with stones outside the camp.
36. So the entire congregation took him outside the camp, and they pelted him to death with stones, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Jesus said the following about working on the Sabbath:

But when the Pharisees asked why Jesus and His disciples did on the Sabbath "that which is unlawful," Jesus replied: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:24)

However, if Jesus is the Word of God incarnate does that mean that Jesus ordered the death of the man in Numbers 15:32-36?

This question has come up because:

A Muslim made the statement that a Muslim who leaves Islam should be put to death for apostasy. I asked him to show me where Jesus ordered the death of anyone for apostasy. Although the man gathering firewood was not put to death for apostasy, this is how the Muslim answered me.

His comment was: "You believe that Jesus is God. So the law of Moses came from Jesus and therefore Jesus ordered the execution."

I can't seem to think this one through and would appreciate any thoughts from the Christians on G&S.

Thank you.

Jesus didn't come to judge. He came to save.

Harry12345 wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Word of God incarnate.

There is an account in the Hebrew Scriptures of a man put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. The following is the account:

Numbers 15:3236

32. When the children of Israel were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33. Those who found him gathering wood presented him before Moses and Aaron and before the entire congregation.
34. They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be done to him.
35. The Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; the entire congregation shall pelt him with stones outside the camp.
36. So the entire congregation took him outside the camp, and they pelted him to death with stones, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Jesus said the following about working on the Sabbath:

But when the Pharisees asked why Jesus and His disciples did on the Sabbath "that which is unlawful," Jesus replied: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:24)

However, if Jesus is the Word of God incarnate does that mean that Jesus ordered the death of the man in Numbers 15:32-36?

This question has come up because:

A Muslim made the statement that a Muslim who leaves Islam should be put to death for apostasy. I asked him to show me where Jesus ordered the death of anyone for apostasy. Although the man gathering firewood was not put to death for apostasy, this is how the Muslim answered me.

His comment was: "You believe that Jesus is God. So the law of Moses came from Jesus and therefore Jesus ordered the execution."

I can't seem to think this one through and would appreciate any thoughts from the Christians on G&S.

Thank you.

Jesus didn't come to judge. He came to save.

Yes, I realize that but you still have not addressed my question.

My thought is that we cannot blame Jesus for God's actions in the Hebrew Scriptures. After all, the human Jesus was born 2,000 years ago.

It is God's Word that incarnated Jesus and that happened at Jesus' conception.

I also think that Jesus brought a better way as the incarnate Word as noted in Mark 2:24.

But, with those statements I just might have turned myself into a heretic. LOL

Christian2,
My flip answer to your friend would be even if Jesus did order the guy gathering firewood to be executed, "so what? God, being the author of the law, can do whatever He wants to do...on the same token, Jesus being God in the flesh can too". But just to be clear, Jesus never broke the laws of God...He only exposed the man made laws that men tried to pawn off as Gods, ie the Scribes and pharisees.

I think the underlying question, in my mind anyway, is why the NT person of the Godhead seems to be softer on sin than the OT person of the Godhead...and is this not a contradiction of some sort. To which I would offer, because Jesus came to usher in the New covenant. A covenant of Grace and not the works of the law. A covenant that is based on what God does for us to give us favor, and not what we do to get God's favor.

What do you think?
FFC

My short answer is that Jesus never broke the Sabbath, nor did He ever advocate breaking the Sabbath. Doing good, such as healing, is not restricted by Levitical law. That it was restricted by Pharisaical law means absolutely nothing, because Jesus was not the author of that. He was the author of the OT law, though, which was the law He perfectly kept.

The man in numbers broke the law. He, then, suffered the punishment laid out for lawbreakers. Jesus never broke the law, and yet He suffered the punishment laid out for lawbreakers. And that is where you go into substitutionary atonement.

Jac3510 wrote:My short answer is that Jesus never broke the Sabbath, nor did He ever advocate breaking the Sabbath. Doing good, such as healing, is not restricted by Levitical law. That it was restricted by Pharisaical law means absolutely nothing, because Jesus was not the author of that. He was the author of the OT law, though, which was the law He perfectly kept.

The man in numbers broke the law. He, then, suffered the punishment laid out for lawbreakers. Jesus never broke the law, and yet He suffered the punishment laid out for lawbreakers. And that is where you go into substitutionary atonement.

Thanks Jac,

I agree that Jesus did not break the Sabbath even though the religious leaders in His day accused Him of it.

I have come to the conclusion that, yes, the Word who became flesh in Jesus, was present when the man who broke the Sabbath in the Hebrew Scriptures was executed and approved it.

I don't know why but this realization is sobbering for me. A friend of mine told me to "deal with it." LOL

Hello everyone,

I asked a Christian friend of mine the same question I asked in the OP.

This is the answer I received.

Many people make the mistake of trying to 'transpose' the Messiah as human back into the times of the Old Testament (before He actually came into existence)?! This is the result of totally failing to recognise the distinction between Eternity and time. Eternity in relation to time is total 'other' and not (as many people wrongly assume) 'endless time'.

Eternity is existence without time and is only possible for God as Absolute (Infinite) Reality. Anything that is by nature finite is by definition both created and temporal (existing within both space and time). Humans, as finite creatures, are incapable of Eternal existence and that includes the Messiah as human.

However, the Messiah is first and foremost the Absolute Infinite Reality that is God. He is the Son/Word who has incarnated as a human creature. The Son/Word exists as Absolute Infinite Reality (i.e. God) but since the Virgin Birth He now also exists as a finite human creature within time and space. So, the Son/Word incarnate as the Messiah is ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (mutually exclusive) WAYS as TWO (distinct but not separate) NATURES, one Eternal Divine Creator, the other temporal human creature. The Son/Word now exists Eternally as the Divine Creator and everlastingly ('forever') as a human creature. (Simonline)

The conclusion is that no one can accuse Jesus of Nazareth, born 2,000 years ago, of killing anyone in the OT.

+
A Better answer for a Muslim who appears to be trying to entrap a person by using such a question is to keep it simple, hit them theologically where it hurts, then leave them to the Holy Ghost. How - remind them of this:

Galatians 2:16, “…nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

Gal 3:24, 25, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." NASB

Then back to

Num 15:30, 31, 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him."

Explain how we all have acted presumptuously against the Lord and that by works of the Law, whether it be prayer 3 times a day, or whatever, cannot make anyone right before God. If a person does not come to Christ and instead relies upon works – they act presumptuously against the Lord’s Grace and a far worse fate awaits them than did the man who broke the Sabbath.

And walk away..
-
-
-

Christian2 wrote:Hello everyone,

I asked a Christian friend of mine the same question I asked in the OP.

This is the answer I received.

Many people make the mistake of trying to 'transpose' the Messiah as human back into the times of the Old Testament (before He actually came into existence)?! This is the result of totally failing to recognise the distinction between Eternity and time. Eternity in relation to time is total 'other' and not (as many people wrongly assume) 'endless time'.

Eternity is existence without time and is only possible for God as Absolute (Infinite) Reality. Anything that is by nature finite is by definition both created and temporal (existing within both space and time). Humans, as finite creatures, are incapable of Eternal existence and that includes the Messiah as human.

However, the Messiah is first and foremost the Absolute Infinite Reality that is God. He is the Son/Word who has incarnated as a human creature. The Son/Word exists as Absolute Infinite Reality (i.e. God) but since the Virgin Birth He now also exists as a finite human creature within time and space. So, the Son/Word incarnate as the Messiah is ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (mutually exclusive) WAYS as TWO (distinct but not separate) NATURES, one Eternal Divine Creator, the other temporal human creature. The Son/Word now exists Eternally as the Divine Creator and everlastingly ('forever') as a human creature. (Simonline)

The conclusion is that no one can accuse Jesus of Nazareth, born 2,000 years ago, of killing anyone in the OT.

Hi C2.

I disagree with your friend's belief on God's relationship to time and eternity. The Lord of the OT is the same Lord in the New, and thus so is God.

Israel were however under the Old Covenant and essentially under a blood contract with God as a nation. What other prophet or group of people made such a covenant with God for their people, and where can these rules be found?

Humanity was not under the Old Covenant, only Israel. Israel were to keep themselves set apart to God, unlike the other nations which surrounded them. Israel's main purpose culminated with Christ, whom without the nation Israel, the past would have taken a very different turn of events. As it stands, Israel was God's chosen nation, and they were blessed to have been chosen for God's plan to enter into humanity to redeem us. Thus, I see that Israel were to live up to a higher standard in order for God's plans to be fulfilled.

Through Christ, we are now forgiven, and thus no longer deserving of death for our sins. A Muslim using the Torah to justify the Islamic putting to death an apostate of their own religion, does not fully understand Christianity nor Judaism for that matter.

Islam theology of putting apostates to death lives via Muhammad and Islamic theology alone. Certainly not Christianity. And I also don't see that they can logically regurgitate rules Israel was to abide by as God's chosen nation to be whimsically applied within an entirely new context (i.e., that of Islam).

Kurieuo wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Hello everyone,

I asked a Christian friend of mine the same question I asked in the OP.

This is the answer I received.

Many people make the mistake of trying to 'transpose' the Messiah as human back into the times of the Old Testament (before He actually came into existence)?! This is the result of totally failing to recognise the distinction between Eternity and time. Eternity in relation to time is total 'other' and not (as many people wrongly assume) 'endless time'.

Eternity is existence without time and is only possible for God as Absolute (Infinite) Reality. Anything that is by nature finite is by definition both created and temporal (existing within both space and time). Humans, as finite creatures, are incapable of Eternal existence and that includes the Messiah as human.

However, the Messiah is first and foremost the Absolute Infinite Reality that is God. He is the Son/Word who has incarnated as a human creature. The Son/Word exists as Absolute Infinite Reality (i.e. God) but since the Virgin Birth He now also exists as a finite human creature within time and space. So, the Son/Word incarnate as the Messiah is ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (mutually exclusive) WAYS as TWO (distinct but not separate) NATURES, one Eternal Divine Creator, the other temporal human creature. The Son/Word now exists Eternally as the Divine Creator and everlastingly ('forever') as a human creature. (Simonline)

The conclusion is that no one can accuse Jesus of Nazareth, born 2,000 years ago, of killing anyone in the OT.

Hi C2.

I disagree with your friend's belief on God's relationship to time and eternity. The Lord of the OT is the same Lord in the New, and thus so is God.

Hi Kurieuo,

I'm not sure you understood what my Christian friend said.

Let me ask you a question: "Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as a human being did not exist prior of 4-6BC?

Christian2 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Hello everyone,

I asked a Christian friend of mine the same question I asked in the OP.

This is the answer I received.

Many people make the mistake of trying to 'transpose' the Messiah as human back into the times of the Old Testament (before He actually came into existence)?! This is the result of totally failing to recognise the distinction between Eternity and time. Eternity in relation to time is total 'other' and not (as many people wrongly assume) 'endless time'.

Eternity is existence without time and is only possible for God as Absolute (Infinite) Reality. Anything that is by nature finite is by definition both created and temporal (existing within both space and time). Humans, as finite creatures, are incapable of Eternal existence and that includes the Messiah as human.

However, the Messiah is first and foremost the Absolute Infinite Reality that is God. He is the Son/Word who has incarnated as a human creature. The Son/Word exists as Absolute Infinite Reality (i.e. God) but since the Virgin Birth He now also exists as a finite human creature within time and space. So, the Son/Word incarnate as the Messiah is ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (mutually exclusive) WAYS as TWO (distinct but not separate) NATURES, one Eternal Divine Creator, the other temporal human creature. The Son/Word now exists Eternally as the Divine Creator and everlastingly ('forever') as a human creature. (Simonline)

The conclusion is that no one can accuse Jesus of Nazareth, born 2,000 years ago, of killing anyone in the OT.

Hi C2.

I disagree with your friend's belief on God's relationship to time and eternity. The Lord of the OT is the same Lord in the New, and thus so is God.

Hi Kurieuo,

I'm not sure you understood what my Christian friend said.

Allow me to try and explain myself better, as I believe I did correctly read into some implications behind your friends words. I am happy to be corrected and read further elaboration if I am wrong.

God may be eternal, and may have been timeless, but this does not mean God is not now temporal. Christ did not enter into temporality during the incarnation, but rather Christ (and God) entered into temporality at creation through whom all things were created that are created.

I believe, along with William Lane Craig, that when God (and as such Christ) created, He gave up timelessness and in His true relationship with His creation entered into time. Thus, there is a timeless state when God exists without creation (prior to His creating), and since creating God existing temporally along side creation.

From your stated words, I am quite sure that your friend does not believe this, but I could be wrong. I do not believe Christ entered into temporality at the virgin birth as your friend states.

C2 wrote:Let me ask you a question: "Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as a human being did not exist prior of 4-6BC?

This is a tricky question I have thought about, and one I think requires careful examining and answering so as not to break with a correct Christology.

I think it wrong to divide Jesus into two, as though Jesus as a human can be separate from Jesus as God. This is to treat Jesus as though he were two persons, something that is wrong to do.

Thus, I believe what is true of Christ's humanity is also true of Christ's divinity. Hence, the phrase/confession, "Mary Mother of God" or Theotokos.

Your friend said, "Many people make the mistake of trying to 'transpose' the Messiah as human back into the times of the Old Testament (before He actually came into existence)?!" And yet, unless Christ is a different person in each case (which I must disagree with), then the Christ who was born into humanity is the very same person who is the Creator. And this is the heart of the Muslim's original claim is it not?

Regarding Christ's ontological nature, I do have my opinions, but I am ultimately not firm in my opinion and must plead to being somewhat ignorant due to insufficient research. Yet, I am not entirely deviod of thought.

I would be careful to too hesitantly say Christ's nature, His essential substance, differed post the virgin birth to pre-virgin birth. An idea I got while studying a supposedly "heretical" belief of Athansius, was that our being made in God's image could mean the human image subsists within God's nature. Thus, God while divine, the Imago Dei also includes the "human image" which is made in/after God's own likeness.

Thus, to dichotomize Christ into a human nature and divine nature would be wrong thinking, not to mention very confusing. If one subsists within the other, then Christ's birth via Mary meant Christ took upon Himself a human bodily form. Yet, this does not necessarily mean that Christ's inherent nature or substance changed since the human image resides within the divine.

So after providing much extended information, I cannot really answer your question, since it has a presumption that separates Christ's nature into the divine and human. I cannot answer the question without affirming such a dichotemy. However, I will say I do believe the same Jesus in person and substance which was born into humanity by Mary existed prior to to 4-6BC.

I'm going to have to read some Craig. Is there a particular work of his that is better than others to begin with?

I think the question itself fails to rightly recognize just what happened here. To say the man was killed for gathering firewood fails to address the context of the situation.

Let's take a look.
Who was this man. Well, it is obvious that he is one of many of Israelites who fled Egypt on the Exodus. To paint him as some poor soul who just went out and picked up a few sticks is completely wrong.

He was a rebellious wretch who trampled under foot the mercies of God, and with each stick he picked up, he shook his fist in the face of God, and said, "screw your mercy, screw your covenant. I'll do what I damn well please on whatever day I please." As he violated the law, people saw him. They witnessed his attempts to undermine what God has covenanted with His people. Is it any wonder that the method for dealing with unintentional sin is given immediately preceding the account of this man? Numbers 15) Think about it people, was this unintentional? God's Word explains it all, if we are willing to study. This was a man who had seen it all. This man has seen the parting of the Red Sea. He has seen the fire on the mountain. He has heard the thunderings of God as His law was etched into stone. He has seen the provision of the Lord in more ways than we can fathom. And what does he do? He thumbs his nose at God.

What was at stake here? Would you believe the whole future of Israel hinged on what would be done with this man. Believe it. The Lord told Moses what to do. It wasn't up for vote. Israel didn't know what to do with the man. But the Lord knew this man's heart. He knew it was full of rebellion and venom for God and His covenant. And that his rebellion was a venom in the life blood of Israel, that if not cut off, would reap ruin.

Look back at Numbers 14 and see what almost happened. At this time Israel is on the edge of Canaan. It is time. God is ready to lead His people into their land. Israel doubted Caleb and Joshua. They listened to the 10 who feared the inhabitants of Canaan, and so they were judged by God unworthy to enter the promised land. God knew the torch was going to be passed to Joshua, and that Moses and Aaron were soon to be in the grave. And now Israel would face its toughest challenge as they waited for all the doubters to die out before they could inherit the land. And so here we have this one man who says, "screw it." And God (Jesus) in His wisdom, exacted judgment to spare Israel the harm that would come from this man's rebellion. It would have spread like a virus. Just like the doubt that spread when Caleb and Joshua's report was ignored. What is the fate of a man who intentionally stands in way of God's plans?

Good grief, Read the Word. "My people perish,...." why? (Hosea 4:6)
Do we really have any idea what the death of Jesus meant for us? Do we really understand that the veil has been torn? Do we really comprehend just what that veil kept us from? Do we really understand what we are saved from?

Just as this man was judged, so again will Jesus come to the earth as judge. And He will judge against those who have mocked God, and trampled underfoot His mercy by refusing to trust His promises, even the gift of salvation that He has offered as an indescribable gift. He aint coming back as Barney the dinosaur handing out lollipops and hugs.

Kurieuo, I am going to get some other opinions and maybe take out some of my Trinity books and do some reading.

Thanks.

Let me ask you a question: "Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as a human being did not exist prior of 4-6BC?

John 1:1

The Word always was.

And then, The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. (John 1:14)

John 10:30
Deut 6:4
Mark 12:29