New young scientist vs old hat scientist

[tiamo41]

Well, i guess i need help and my faith re-stored. After my Mother passed on Oct. 1997, i was a mess for months and months, missing her so much i became very depressed, so i started reading. I wanted to know she was ok, but the child in me wanted her to communicate with me some-how, it never happened. I picked up books on the after-life-Creationism-Evolution-Quantum Physics- Michael Behe- Stephen Meyer of the Discovery Institute--Michio Kaku--and the one i should not have read was by Carl Segen......I thought i was a christian, my entire life in church and knowing there was a GOD, THEN SUDDENLY, my entire prospective changed and now i am agnostic. This saddens me beyond belief, as i want my faith back. in short, i have come to believe there is nothing after we die....things that bother me is that the earth is 5.4 billion years old, possibly the first 2 billion was silence, then microbes came into play and all the evolution that comes with that created fish, four legged walking creatures, dinosaurs, then we was wiped out and Adam and Eve was placed on earth as the first humans after Apes and their generation moved about for billions of years. Trying to keep an open mind, it is obvious Creationism and evolution can work together.......The creation of the cosmos and planets is beyond any of our comprehension, the enormity that would take to create is mind-boggling. I want a God in all of this, I desparately want my belief and faith back, but the big questions continue to boggle my mind and now i want PROOF. Not asking for much am I. I cannot tell you how deeply i admire those that continue to have faith in God after all the documentaries and scientific writtings that are available. I continue to admit that technology and science has come a very long way and although many of the writting in the bible are in play with science, that are as many writting that are not. I want that light bulb to go off that says" Eureka, that's it"...we are God's children, how could i ever have doubted that"! Poor, Sad, Me- i continue to pray for help in re-storing my once christian belief.... Tiamo

[Enigma7457]

I may not be the best person to reply to this (since it was actually science that led me to my first baby steps towards Christ), but i am going to try anyway.

I'm going to start with my own testimony. I was raised in a Christian home, by Christian parents (great ones), and was dating a Christian woman whose main drive to date me was because i was a Christian. Then, i began to learn about evolution and all that jazz. Bam, started to doubt. Drove my girlfriend crazy (side note: She is now my pregnant wife ). So, for her, i did some digging. Picked up Lee Strobel, CS Lewis, Michael Behe, Richard Dawkins (eek!). Case for the creator started it all. Life is complex, very complex. CS Lewis put it in perspective. Now, i am a solid Christian (though i fail a whole lot and STILL doubt). But i have my faith. And looking back, i know i wasn't even a Christian before i doubted. My doubts, in a sense, saved me. If i had never doubted, i would have continued on a semi-christian: Thinking i was doing the right things but actually doing nothing at all.

That's my story. Although i am not perfect (like most of us), i am a better Christian now, thanks to my doubts. Keep pushing on. You have the desire for God, and that's all that really matters. Never lose that desire and you will recapture that faith you seek. Never give up.

May i suggest picking up CS Lewis. Read Mere Christianity. Very simple, yet very powerful. Doubt, in and of itself, is not a christian's enemy. "You will find me when you seek me when you seek me with all your heart." To me it sounds like you've got that down (the seeking with all your heart). Your doubt will only drive you to become a better Christian, as it does most of us.

You have my prayers,

Bryan

[Cook]

My attitude in fact is much like that described by a Carl Sagan quote:

"In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed!'?'"

I enjoy science including astronomy and biology, even evolution! It doesn't impinge on Jesus' teachings or his eternal message of service and love. That is really at the heart of it all:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

And further:

"These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you."

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you"

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

I can tell you that this was the route to proof in my own soul: learning to love others (not that I've learned it completely, but I try), putting the focus away from me and on the question: what is the Father's will? How can I help his children, my brothers and sisters. On large matters like the origins of the universe, I know that no human brain is ever going to have a Godlike understanding, there will always be mystery. To me that is intruiging mystery, I tend to think even on the scale of eternity, there inevitably will be much to unfold to us about the unimaginable depths of the infinite. We'll live a whole life here and only just have the slightest microscopic bit of understanding.

I will tell you what evaporated all my doubts, that was to go back to the fountain source of living waters, the truth of Jesus' words and life and study those and work to live up to his teachings. To me there is much that will be unattainable in terms of understanding the physical universe, that is all right and anything science can show is much appreciated in inspiring awe about this existence, while in this short life those words of Jesus have the essential spiritual lessons for us to work to grasp.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Amen to that.

[Gman]

My attitude in fact is much like that described by a Carl Sagan quote:

"In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed!'?'"

I enjoy science including astronomy and biology, even evolution! It doesn't impinge on Jesus' teachings or his eternal message of service and love.

Well we appreciate your zeal for science and God, but the way science is taught in schools (meaning Darwinian Evolution) is taught COMPLETELY without any divine intervention. The spiritual world (or even God for the matter) is a downright laughable absurdity to the scientific community.

If you really want to be in awe of the universe, find God first, then marvel at his works. You don't even need a science book to tell you how great it is...

"These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you."

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you"

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

I can tell you that this was the route to proof in my own soul: learning to love others (not that I've learned it completely, but I try), putting the focus away from me and on the question: what is the Father's will? How can I help his children, my brothers and sisters. On large matters like the origins of the universe, I know that no human brain is ever going to have a Godlike understanding, there will always be mystery. To me that is intruiging mystery, I tend to think even on the scale of eternity, there inevitably will be much to unfold to us about the unimaginable depths of the infinite. We'll live a whole life here and only just have the slightest microscopic bit of understanding.

I will tell you what evaporated all my doubts, that was to go back to the fountain source of living waters, the truth of Jesus' words and life and study those and work to live up to his teachings. To me there is much that will be unattainable in terms of understanding the physical universe, that is all right and anything science can show is much appreciated in inspiring awe about this existence, while in this short life those words of Jesus have the essential spiritual lessons for us to work to grasp.

Well again it's all nice but to the evolutionist there really is no love, no joy, no spirituality, and no God. It's all just chemical reactions in your brain cells. And when that dies, everything that you attributed to God or love, etc.. Perishes forever... It means absolutely nothing... A wasteful idiotic pursuit...

[tiamo41]

Thanks so much for your replies. i found this on the internet and i know there are so so many opinions out there and maybe i am grasping, but i find a lot here that gives me hope.
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/new.html.......Tiamo

[Cook]

Hi Gman,

Thank you for your response and thoughts. You make these comments:

"Well we appreciate your zeal for science and God, but the way science is taught in schools (meaning Darwinian Evolution) is taught COMPLETELY without any divine intervention. The spiritual world (or even God for the matter) is a downright laughable absurdity to the scientific community.

If you really want to be in awe of the universe, find God first, then marvel at his works. You don't even need a science book to tell you how great it is..."

It is okay to me that science is taught without divine intervention, that is how science works, it's an endeavor by people to attempt to find understanding of the physical universe without recourse to a fall-back concept of divine intervention.

Amazingly, you do need a science book to tell you how great it all is! I do at least, to really get it. I look at astronomy pictures almost daily and am thankful I live in this time period of history where the vaults have been opened to us, so to say, to wonder at the depths and massive perspectives that have been hidden from human understanding throughout all the rest of history. It's humbling, it's good (I have similar impressions from the large time scales of geological time and evolution, which I also enjoy studying). I recently read a book on the history of astronomy, it is incredible how much greater our knowledge has become in even just the past one hundred years. It wasn't even clear a hundred years ago about there being other external galaxies from the Milky Way. I am thankful for science and scientists for their work in understanding this physical existence.

I also am thankful for the many opportunities I've had to work with and talk with scientists. They are also God's children to me even if some of them haven't realized it yet, I know God is patient and never gives up on them, even the ones who would consider the idea of him an absurdity. I understand that faith is a challenge for them in a way that it may not be others. God knows this even far better than I will -- "the Father knows what you need, before even you ask", that applies to them too -- and his love for them is more than I know. Jesus had among his disciples one like them, doubting Thomas, Jesus loved and kept this disciple as well as ministered to many others doubting and not knowing about God. You make a statement that "the evolutionist there really is no love, no joy, no spirituality, and no God. It's all just chemical reactions in your brain cells" ... Yes there are those out there but that then becomes our privilege in life to be a light and be good to people like them, and that is done through our love and understanding of them as they are, not to consider them separate and apart. To me there aren't "evolutionists", "dishwashers", etc, except as temporary society labels in this small life; in the eternity view, underlying all, is that God is the Father and Creator, even for them, they are brothers and sisters to me.

Tiamo, good luck as you continue to explore the many opinions and viewpoints! Many have attempted to find proof of God through science, don't become disappointed that this route doesn't lead so many to an acceptance of God. I can only share that my own route hasn't led any part of science to become proof of him, where I have found the proof is in growing in love and service to others, and to always pray for more wisdom and understanding of his will.

[Enigma7457]

Cook, i agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you said. However...

It is okay to me that science is taught without divine intervention, that is how science works, it's an endeavor by people to attempt to find understanding of the physical universe without recourse to a fall-back concept of divine intervention.

I must respectfully disagree here. Science is the study of the world. And divine intervention happens. If it didn't, there would be no world. So, science can either not study the whole world or must admit to divine intervention.

Otherwise, well said.

[Gman]

It is okay to me that science is taught without divine intervention, that is how science works, it's an endeavor by people to attempt to find understanding of the physical universe without recourse to a fall-back concept of divine intervention.

Hi Cook,

We are talking about origins here right? Well, my Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. I'm not sure what science you are talking about here, but if you are referring to Darwinian evolution, which is a theory that hasn't been proven to be completely factual or "proven" science (as you claim), then it's premise claims that the earth, the universe, people, animals, etc, came into being through naturalistic means with no divine intervention. If you believe that some deity created it, then this is a problem... The two perspectives are in conflict...

Amazingly, you do need a science book to tell you how great it all is! I do at least, to really get it. I look at astronomy pictures almost daily and am thankful I live in this time period of history where the vaults have been opened to us, so to say, to wonder at the depths and massive perspectives that have been hidden from human understanding throughout all the rest of history. It's humbling, it's good (I have similar impressions from the large time scales of geological time and evolution, which I also enjoy studying). I recently read a book on the history of astronomy, it is incredible how much greater our knowledge has become in even just the past one hundred years. It wasn't even clear a hundred years ago about there being other external galaxies from the Milky Way. I am thankful for science and scientists for their work in understanding this physical existence.

To each their own I guess.. The ancients also had an extreme fascination with astronomy too. Without any books... I actually think that children have a better fascination with the universe than the adults sometimes..

Also.. Who says that we should be against the work of scientists? Again, I'm very sorry you feel this way... Without their works, many of us would probably be dead..

I also am thankful for the many opportunities I've had to work with and talk with scientists. They are also God's children to me even if some of them haven't realized it yet, I know God is patient and never gives up on them, even the ones who would consider the idea of him an absurdity.

I have no clue what you are saying here... Who ever said that scientists weren't God's children? Scientists have every right to be called God's children just like everyone else. Who are we to judge others except God?

I understand that faith is a challenge for them in a way that it may not be others. God knows this even far better than I will -- "the Father knows what you need, before even you ask", that applies to them too -- and his love for them is more than I know. Jesus had among his disciples one like them, doubting Thomas, Jesus loved and kept this disciple as well as ministered to many others doubting and not knowing about God.

God not only knows all people, but he created them all as well. He even created the scientists... Who says that we shouldn't love scientists? I'm very sorry to hear that you think scientists shouldn't be loved by all people or God for that matter. Have you ever read the Bible before? Perhaps that should clear up some of this confusion.

You make a statement that "the evolutionist there really is no love, no joy, no spirituality, and no God. It's all just chemical reactions in your brain cells" ... Yes there are those out there but that then becomes our privilege in life to be a light and be good to people like them, and that is done through our love and understanding of them as they are, not to consider them separate and apart. To me there aren't "evolutionists", "dishwashers", etc, except as temporary society labels in this small life; in the eternity view, underlying all, is that God is the Father and Creator, even for them, they are brothers and sisters to me.

No that isn't my point at all... You totally misread what I was trying to say. I'm saying that the theory of Darwinian evolution (not the scientists themselves) breaks down spiritual aspects down to simple physical structures or components. So love isn't spiritual, it is merely broken down to evolved neurons transmitting certain chemical reactions in the brain. So in essence, there in no real love, because your brain produces a chemical that only makes you "feel" love, but there is no real love. And once you take that part away... Well it's gone... Poof..

Scientists are NOT the enemies... We battle against principalities and higher powers.... In fact I would trust more scientists than many "so called" Christians I know.

Tiamo, good luck as you continue to explore the many opinions and viewpoints! Many have attempted to find proof of God through science, don't become disappointed that this route doesn't lead so many to an acceptance of God. I can only share that my own route hasn't led any part of science to become proof of him, where I have found the proof is in growing in love and service to others, and to always pray for more wisdom and understanding of his will.

Ah, I don't understand... Are you claiming that Darwinian evolution is completely factual? Well, I'm sorry but it isn't... If you can prove that our world came about through naturalistic means I'm all ears... Try proving that God "didn't" create all things with Darwinian evolution.. Good luck with that one...

[Cook]

No that isn't my point at all... You totally misread what I was trying to say. I'm saying that the theory of Darwinian evolution (not the scientists themselves) breaks down spiritual aspects down to simple physical structures or components. So love isn't spiritual, it is merely broken down to evolved neurons transmitting certain chemical reactions in the brain. So in essence, there in no real love, because your brain produces a chemical that only makes you "feel" love, but there is no real love. And once you take that part away... Well it's gone... Poof..

Scientists are NOT the enemies... We battle against principalities and higher powers.... In fact I would trust more scientists than many "so called" Christians I know.

No problem, no worries, just be more careful how you phrase things because it's not actually that I misread your other post, but took it at face value:

Well again it's all nice but to the evolutionist there really is no love, no joy, no spirituality, and no God. It's all just chemical reactions in your brain cells. And when that dies, everything that you attributed to God or love, etc.. Perishes forever... It means absolutely nothing... A wasteful idiotic pursuit...

You were talking about "the evolutionist" not the theory of Darwinian evolution. And in your follow-up post that I've quoted at the beginning of this post, you're not actually describing a viewpoint that originated with the theory of evolution but preceeded it. You're talking about causal determinism, which most substantially grew from Newtonian physics a couple hundred years before Darwin was even born (and in ways dates back to antecedent philosophers in ancient Greece).

Uh, and also, almost all of my post was simply to add more points and perspectives to the conversational stew, not to argue or pretend that I was responding to phantom arguments that weren't there.

I'm very sorry to hear that you think scientists shouldn't be loved by all people or God for that matter.

Cheer up! On re-reading my post, you'll see that in fact I said the exact opposite: God's love for them is even more than I can comprehend! I hope and pray constantly for an even greater understanding of his love for his children.

Tiamo, good luck as you continue to explore the many opinions and viewpoints! Many have attempted to find proof of God through science, don't become disappointed that this route doesn't lead so many to an acceptance of God. I can only share that my own route hasn't led any part of science to become proof of him, where I have found the proof is in growing in love and service to others, and to always pray for more wisdom and understanding of his will.

Ah, I don't understand... Are you claiming that Darwinian evolution is completely factual? Well, I'm sorry but it isn't... If you can prove that our world came about through naturalistic means I'm all ears... Try proving that God "didn't" create all things with Darwinian evolution.. Good luck with that one...

What I was saying is that people don't find God through science hardly at all, and from my own experience, I don't see science understandings as a weight-bearing structure for faith. People don't pick up science books and come away with understandings about Jesus life or trusting the Father like a child any more than they come away with French metaphysics or Aztec mythology or recipes for cookin a mean souffle. There are different routes to find different knowledge and that would include spiritual truth. Science is a meager source of spiritual truth.

[Kurieuo]

What I was saying is that people don't find God through science hardly at all, and from my own experience, I don't see science understandings as a weight-bearing structure for faith. People don't pick up science books and come away with understandings about Jesus life or trusting the Father like a child any more than they come away with French metaphysics or Aztec mythology or recipes for cookin a mean souffle. There are different routes to find different knowledge and that would include spiritual truth. Science is a meager source of spiritual truth.

I know you did not intend to provide an in-depth response in this paragraph, but leaving such a deep topic at where you did leaves the issue of "faith" and science too open-ended and over-simplified.

Firstly, I see there is an element of faith in science, and in any pursuit of knowledge, and so I think it is wrong to only label that pursuit of knowledge that has a theological character as "faith".

Now I can agree though that science and theology deal with two different spheres of knowledge, however we should not baulk in either if we see the two appear to clash when they cross paths. In fact, if the two can be harmonised on certain truths, then I see that would be all the more reason for accepting that truth than if only one realm of enquiry pointed to a certain truth. Of course there are truths each realm deals with which may not be able to be supported by the other since they are two very different epistemological enterprises.

That said I think people can and very much do find God through observing the world and through free scientific enquiry. Theological knowledge such as Christ's teachings about Himself as God, our incompatibility with God when standing on our own merit, and others may not be derivable from science. However, God I think can and has certainly been sought and understood via scientific avenues. The Apostle Paul even touches upon this saying,

• "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

What we have in particular with the controversy surrounding God and science (which this website attempts to show that there is no disharmony between fully embracing truths from both realms) I think comes down to our being able to perceive. We all come to the table with certain experiences and affectivities. None of us have a clean slate. As such some evidentially see God in the world around us and furthermore in science, while others may not.

There is no other convincing reason I see to explain why this is so except to believe that for some reason the perception of many is shrouded from perceiving God. Now if I were to put a reason as to why this is so, I see such as being at least partly due to the thicket of Naturalist metaphysics that is strongly embedded in our social culture today. In addition, the impact of experiences, biology and affective qualities, or something like God "hiding" Himself from many until they show a true interest in wanting to know Him are likely further reasons. I certainly am not convinced by those who would say it is simply a matter of "faith" versus "science" and a person lacking one or the other. Such I believe shows an arrogance of sorts at least by those proclaiming to be on one side while rejecting the other.

[Gman]

No problem, no worries, just be more careful how you phrase things because it's not actually that I misread your other post, but took it at face value:

You were talking about "the evolutionist" not the theory of Darwinian evolution. And in your follow-up post that I've quoted at the beginning of this post, you're not actually describing a viewpoint that originated with the theory of evolution but preceeded it. You're talking about causal determinism, which most substantially grew from Newtonian physics a couple hundred years before Darwin was even born (and in ways dates back to antecedent philosophers in ancient Greece).

Uh, and also, almost all of my post was simply to add more points and perspectives to the conversational stew, not to argue or pretend that I was responding to phantom arguments that weren't there.

Cook... Are you serious?? You were trying to insult me... I'm attacking the philosophy or viewpoint that some scientist hold dear to themselves (whether this viewpoint started yesterday or 70,000 years ago)... I'm not addressing the person themselves or their stance with God. You, it seems, on the other hand, are trying to stereotype me or Christians into this primitive idea that if one holds to the belief of evolution that this "automatically" puts them at odds with God and Christians to which is the reason why I asked you the question, have you ever read the Bible before. Because if you were to have read and understood it, you would have known that such statements are ridiculous.

Cheer up! On re-reading my post, you'll see that in fact I said the exact opposite: God's love for them is even more than I can comprehend! I hope and pray constantly for an even greater understanding of his love for his children.

You cheer up... Because you are wrong... You are under the assumption that they are at odds with God because of their viewpoint, which is why you are saying that God loves them or you were trying to insult. Which is it? How do you know how people with this mindset stand with God? Did God tell you? Don't forget, we are not here to judge others. That is left up to God alone.

What I was saying is that people don't find God through science hardly at all, and from my own experience, I don't see science understandings as a weight-bearing structure for faith. People don't pick up science books and come away with understandings about Jesus life or trusting the Father like a child any more than they come away with French metaphysics or Aztec mythology or recipes for cookin a mean souffle. There are different routes to find different knowledge and that would include spiritual truth. Science is a meager source of spiritual truth.

Well you are wrong again... People come to God in different ways. For some it's an emotional connection, for others (like the doubting Thomas) need apologetics or the physical proof before they believe. Darwinian Evolution crippled my faith, so in return, I'm going to cripple it..

[tiamo41]

Bryan-Cook- Gman: i admire all the responses and maybe it is the doubt that will lead me to my faith once again. I question everything i read or hear or see ! Being a young girl was so easy and pure i had no doubts and saw myself sitting on Jesus's lap when i died and him comforting me. Walking hand in hand through the garden---nice picture---lolol but i don't think that is going to happen. Lets say we wrote our own story about the days of Jesus and someone found them hidden in a cave--i wrote of my doubting this silly man thats says there is a God and Bryan writes he is the truth and the way, Cook says i'm not sure this guy is for real, and Gman ridicules all of us for even doubting. Which of our writings would be chosen to be put in the Bible, and who decides the finality of the writings of the Bible ? The Church has decided all of this for us and what we should believe or not was not an option ! The book was closed and to question it was a Sin. So 2000 years have passed and here we are still questioning it ! Nothing has changed-but science has comeinto the picture . I have to go to work now---------so i'll be back later...i am in the pondering mood and need to get ready for the work mood. Have a great day ! Tiamo

[Enigma7457]

Believing in the bible alone does require a big leap of faith. We have the bible telling us to trust the bible, and that seems to be it.

Like i said, i am not a Christian because of the bible. I believe the bible because i am a christian. I know it is a slight change in the wording, but it makes a difference. I firmly believe that Jesus existed, i firmly believe that he did what they said he did. And, since he is the truth, i have to believe the rest of the bible as truth, as well.

The book was closed and to question it was a Sin. So 2000 years have passed and here we are still questioning it

To question the bible is not a sin. You will not find one verse (to my knowledge) that tells you doubting is a sin. If you did, it is the biggest of all sins since everyone (i mean everyone [someone step up here if i'm wrong]) either doubts or has doubted in the past.

"You will find me when you seek me if you seek me with all your heart" (something like that). Who will find? Those who seek. Who seeks? Those with questions. If we had all the answer, and therefore no doubt, life would be easier. But we don't, so we are invited (by the bible and the Lord Himself) to seek.

[Gman]

and Gman ridicules all of us for even doubting.

Tiamo.. I'm not into word games, I just wanted to clarify my stance. I'm not ridiculing everyone..

If you want my honest opinion, what is it that you are seeking? We all seek love don't we? Shouldn't this be our highest priority in everything we do?

Don't be fooled by all this science jargon... Because neither Darwinian Evolution nor ID has the complete facts when it comes to origins. And both views never will imo...

My approach maybe a bit different. My suggestion is that you put love on the highest tower that you can find and then work your way down. If something doesn't conform to love then we should throw it out. Right? Likewise, we should study all philosophies and religions and weed out those that don't put love first and foremost as their theme. Because it is love that will prevail... Not science, word games, etc.. And if you find that the Bible or God doesn't conform to this love, then I would suggest that you throw that out too...