Death/Dying

[Uncertain817]

I have a question, maybe it is basic, and yet could be extremely complex.

I know people die to make room for the next generation of people, but what is the purpose of "God" taking someone's life early? Especially in a suffering-manner(I.E- Cancer, terminal disease, even murder)

Is it to teach us some sort of lesson? If so, it seems sick and cruel.

I want to hear your thoughts!

[Johnnyk]

People die because it's the way of life.


God doesn't so much "take" life, its more of a release from the physical realm.

And to assume God gives you Cancer, is ignorant. (no offense, not speaking specifically to you.)

And being murdered is on a basis of free-will. God has nothing to do with it.

And it teaches us that life can be hard, and we must bear with it.

[Enigma7457]

In a Christian's perspective, there is nothing wrong with people dying. When they die (or are killed) they get 'promoted,' so to speak. Dying is not the end for the christian, it is more of a beginning.

As for people dying painfully, i don't really have an answer. The free will description the post above is a good one, though. It is not God's doing (although he is involved with everyone's decision) when someone kills or such.

[gogobuffalo]

The reason people die painfully is sin. If Adam and Eve would never have sinned, then there would be no pain or terrible sicknesses. And that is how God created Earth. It was man who brought sin into the Earth, and with sin man brought things such as cancer, plagues, etc. All the terrible things that you see around yourself, and that people ask how could God do this? Well man brought sin into Earth, not God. So God permits it all to happen, but only because that's the price and nature of a sinful world. Hopefully that helps.

[hp2007]

This is just my view, but I think that people just get sick. It's a lot to do with luck. No one deserves to be punished with a deadly illness. That's whether you believe in a god or not. It doesn't sound like a good answer but when do we really ever receive a good answer? My mother got ALS when she was 30 and I watched her die. Theres no predisposition for the illness, it can occur in anyone. Not every question can be answered and I think people need to come to terms with that.
Hopefully no one you know is ill.

[David Blacklock]

>>The reason people die painfully is sin<<

I think that is a little harsh. Matter of fact, I think the whole concept of sin is wrong. Illness, accidents, and death happen on this earth exactly the way one would expect them to happen if there were no interventional God. Furthermore, the idea that someone has a misfortune because they or someone in their family has sinned and needs a good firm lesson - only suggests that whoever thought that is not observing very closely. There is no epidemiological correlation between ethical behavior and tragedies that befall them or their families..

DB

[Canuckster1127]

>>The reason people die painfully is sin<<

I think that is a little harsh. Matter of fact, I think the whole concept of sin is wrong. Illness, accidents, and death happen on this earth exactly the way one would expect them to happen if there were no interventional God. Furthermore, the idea that someone has a misfortune because they or someone in their family has sinned and needs a good firm lesson - only suggests that whoever thought that is not observing very closely. There is no epidemiological correlation between ethical behavior and tragedies that befall them or their families..

DB

David,

If you read the original post, I think you'll see that the poster was not suggesting that there is a one to one relationship in the sense that people who suffer painful deaths are being punished directly for their sin. The idea is that death entered the world because of sin and as such all of us die.

Pain, suffering, sickness and death are the results of original sin and all of us fall under it. Christians believe that God is in control and works His will in this regard and that ultimately sin and death will be defeated.

I think it is possible that in a particular case God may allow death because of a person's actions. There's indications that God in particular for a Christian may allow an early death because of their falling away or defaming the name of Christ. God doesn't share that knowlege with us however so I've never presumed to know that in a given situation and as a pastor in the past I've had some difficult conversations with grieving families who question so much in this area. I've never sought to add to anyone's pain by second guessing something I can't know.

[David Blacklock]

Hi Bart -

Yes, I see that now and apologize to Gobuffalo. I decided to respond to his post - then when I referred back to it, I only read the first line. Anyway, if I may comment - frequently those who think quite differently on issues simply don't bring them up. But since we're supposed to chat in this chatroom, I'll stick my neck out and say I don't think the idea of original sin is valid. The Bible was written in a time of superstition and mythology and many of the stories in the Bible mirror similar stories both elsewhere in the Bible and in mythology. I think most liberal Christians would not insist on taking the Bible so literally. Instead, they might say the texts of the Bible are filled with a deeper, symbolic truth rather than with a surface literalism.

Please allow me to demonstrate an alternative method of understanding Scripture. Hebrew authors writing theological histories of their times interpreted the significance of current events in terms of their relation to past important events. This method was known as "Midrash" and it was the main criterion for choosing the details worth reporting for any given event. Hebrew history was written to record the acts of God in the affairs of men. So, for example, since God was obviously acting through Moses in parting the Red Sea, when a similar parting of the waters is reported to have occurred when Joshua or Elijah or Elisha crossed the Jordan on subsequent occasions, this was the historians' way of certifying in each case that God was at work among his chosen people. Parting of water was a symbol for God's care; it was irrelevant to Hebrew historical tradition whether the physical event had or had not occurred. Modern history is written under an entirely different set of rules. We like to know the who, what, when, where and why of events in factual detail and reasoned exposition, but these issues were not of prime importance to the writers of the Old Testament. Similarly, in constructing histories of Jesus and the early disciples in the latter part of the first century, a paramount task of the evangelists was to validate Jesus' life and acts by Midrash, citing events in his life that had significant parallels in Hebrew scriptures.

This nonliteral outlook about the Bible is common in liberal Christianity, although probably not on this forum, and that is reason enough to mention it.

Now boarding the Ark,

DB

[Gman]

Hi Bart -

Yes, I see that now and apologize to Gobuffalo. I decided to respond to his post - then when I referred back to it, I only read the first line. Anyway, if I may comment - frequently those who think quite differently on issues simply don't bring them up. But since we're supposed to chat in this chatroom, I'll stick my neck out and say I don't think the idea of original sin is valid. The Bible was written in a time of superstition and mythology and many of the stories in the Bible mirror similar stories both elsewhere in the Bible and in mythology. I think most liberal Christians would not insist on taking the Bible so literally. Instead, they might say the texts of the Bible are filled with a deeper, symbolic truth rather than with a surface literalism.

David,

I will try my best to address this... The basic message of "original sin" is that love no longer takes dominance in the lives of it's people... The word "sin" is actually an old archery term meaning to miss the mark (in love). Do we, as humans, claim that we love others 100% of the time? I can't speak for others, but as for myself I can assure you that I don't love people as I should 100% of the time (which is the sin that lives in me). So if we break this down, let's face it, we all have sin in our lives or miss the bull's eye... The simple message being, it's not that I want to achieve a "good" image of myself as our cosmopolitan world would have it, but rather an "accurate" image of myself (the good and bad).

Here is a question... Do we feel closer to those that are truthful or hide their shortcomings to us? Again I can't speak for others, but when someone says or tries to project an image that is not accurate, how does that make me feel about them? Likewise with myself, saying something, then doing something to the contrary.. Does this make any sense? This is the separation that the original sin confronts. A separation that was brought on by man, not God directly...

For me the message of the original sin is beautiful... Sin is in all of us whether we want to deny this or not. It's not a superstition or a myth. It's real....

[madscientist]

Interesting... how would the population be controlled if there were no sin? Population could not have been expanding on 1 planet. soon the whole earth would be filled. SO God had this planned - although man was immortal until he sinned, man did not bother about how there would be an increasing number of people and infinite life. But God knew he'd sin so then He made it as it is. And also how possible before sin there were no accidents or things like that? Did no-one think of killing? Did not someone fall and break a bone? Was the metaphysical world so different? Or, did the perfection and sinlessness last so short (few hours?) that man had no chance of realizing all the possibilities he had and what could happen, and then sin came? And what happened at that moment? Why man realized he was naked and sinned? Why was he able to recognize good and evil? Did something unique happen in adam and eve's brain which told them this? Were they less intelligent, incapable of making sin before the fall, before they knew temptation? Were they similar to animals?

And to assume God gives you Cancer, is ignorant. (no offense, not speaking specifically to you.)And being murdered is on a basis of free-will. God has nothing to do with it.

Well that depends; i hear many times that God gave someone a sickness. But then the thing is - if God controls everything, is it by God or by methaphysics?
As for murder and all that - hmm... yes free will. But if God protects us we won't die. True - e.g. we may be shot at but escape. The fact that we had prayed before etc makes the situation that the shot passes and we can escape. That's how i interpret when man escapes some evil. Again, we say God saved us. But for murder - sometimes it is an accident. Whose fault? Metaphysics, chance, randomness, God, man, Satan?
Moreover God can and does violate free will. He can make great things; nothing for God is impossible! E.g. when kings' hearts were hardened. And all that. Or does "hardening the heart" simply mean "allowing it to be hardened"?
The thing is, where do we draw the line "God wanted it" and "God allowed it"? OK now i can grab a knife and kill myself. It would be an illusion it was my own free will. To what extent? If i succeed - did God want me dead?
But there's been cases of suicide where the person has done it tens of times and didnt succeed! Why? (Un)lucky or God simply cared for them?

Hard topic though... If God controls everything - do we have choices and what comes from God directly??

[Gman]

Interesting... how would the population be controlled if there were no sin? Population could not have been expanding on 1 planet. soon the whole earth would be filled. SO God had this planned - although man was immortal until he sinned, man did not bother about how there would be an increasing number of people and infinite life. But God knew he'd sin so then He made it as it is. And also how possible before sin there were no accidents or things like that? Did no-one think of killing? Did not someone fall and break a bone? Was the metaphysical world so different? Or, did the perfection and sinlessness last so short (few hours?) that man had no chance of realizing all the possibilities he had and what could happen, and then sin came? And what happened at that moment? Why man realized he was naked and sinned? Why was he able to recognize good and evil? Did something unique happen in adam and eve's brain which told them this? Were they less intelligent, incapable of making sin before the fall, before they knew temptation? Were they similar to animals?

Mad... I believe that the Bible was addressing spiritual death and not physical death. So killing and broken bones did happen before the original sin... Please read the following sources.

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... ortal.html
Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/death.html

Well that depends; i hear many times that God gave someone a sickness. But then the thing is - if God controls everything, is it by God or by methaphysics?
As for murder and all that - hmm... yes free will. But if God protects us we won't die. True - e.g. we may be shot at but escape. The fact that we had prayed before etc makes the situation that the shot passes and we can escape. That's how i interpret when man escapes some evil. Again, we say God saved us. But for murder - sometimes it is an accident. Whose fault? Metaphysics, chance, randomness, God, man, Satan?
Moreover God can and does violate free will. He can make great things; nothing for God is impossible! E.g. when kings' hearts were hardened. And all that. Or does "hardening the heart" simply mean "allowing it to be hardened"?
The thing is, where do we draw the line "God wanted it" and "God allowed it"? OK now i can grab a knife and kill myself. It would be an illusion it was my own free will. To what extent? If i succeed - did God want me dead?
But there's been cases of suicide where the person has done it tens of times and didnt succeed! Why? (Un)lucky or God simply cared for them?

Hard topic though... If God controls everything - do we have choices and what comes from God directly??

You might find this article useful... http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/p ... ation.html

I don't think God micro-manages us....

[madscientist]

Hm i read quickly the articles... the thing is, ive read a lot of them when i first came to G&S, i.e. in february 2006. But of course many things have gone from my mind etc.
But - OK... so to go back:
1. there was death of animals - unless you are YEC. Hm was Adam really not immortal? ALways been told he was. OK. now regardless whether he was or not. There was no human suffering pain or anything bad before the sin, was there?
Also yes - kinda logical - think of the dinosaurs! died before human ever came. if they got wiped out - there must've been some serious death and probably even physical pain and all that.

2. as for free will and predestination - here we are! This never-ending problem. If God doesnt micro-manage us, then we have free will. So he only macro-manages us? But then our environment, genetics, etc - what about that? A tiny change can cause a huge change in life! E.g. meeting a person randomly sometimes can change our life - that person can become the person we marry and live with! Or a tiny "yes" or "no" somewhere in our brain, neurotic activity - and here it comes, a huge difference is teh result!!
But of course - God predestines us and we choose. But the extent to which this happens and all that.

Anyway... back to death. If God doesnt micro-manage us, then getting a cancer or soemthing - is that macromanagement and then our choices are micro? Or how are we meant to udnerstand what is macro and micro? Because they are related. Macro - allows for other choices in micro, and micro - these small choices lead to a different world, i.e. macro.
But i dont think we will ever understand how all this works. But its amazing anyway - we have free will, feelings, and all that yet we're no more than a bunch of non-living particles stuck up together

[jenna]

Actually in response to Gman, there were no broken bones or illness or killings before the original sin. The original sin is what created all the problems and illnesses that man has today. Cain did the first act of murder. If there were killings before the original sin, then it wouldn't be original!

[Gman]

Hm i read quickly the articles... the thing is, ive read a lot of them when i first came to G&S, i.e. in february 2006. But of course many things have gone from my mind etc.
But - OK... so to go back:
1. there was death of animals - unless you are YEC.

Correct, this is usually YEC thinking...

Hm was Adam really not immortal? ALways been told he was.

Can you show me from scripture where God made Adam immortal? I believe the Bible indicates that he died spiritually the day he sinned, not physically.

OK. now regardless whether he was or not. There was no human suffering pain or anything bad before the sin, was there?

I don't believe that pain is necessarily bad or evil. Pain is actually good... Pain alerts us we need to react to a situation before serious damage occurs.

Best explained here: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ering.html

Also yes - kinda logical - think of the dinosaurs! died before human ever came. if they got wiped out - there must've been some serious death and probably even physical pain and all that.

Good point...

2. as for free will and predestination - here we are! This never-ending problem. If God doesnt micro-manage us, then we have free will. So he only macro-manages us? But then our environment, genetics, etc - what about that? A tiny change can cause a huge change in life! E.g. meeting a person randomly sometimes can change our life - that person can become the person we marry and live with! Or a tiny "yes" or "no" somewhere in our brain, neurotic activity - and here it comes, a huge difference is teh result!!
But of course - God predestines us and we choose. But the extent to which this happens and all that.

I would look at it this way... Think of God as our cosmic traffic cop looking down on our roads of wisdom. As man is driving down on one of his roads, he comes to a blind corner. Instead off stopping or slowing down, he decides to speed up... God, our traffic cop, on the other hand can see (prophetically) what is around that blind corner (a broken bridge for instance) and posts a huge detour sign. Now God can post as many detour signs and roadblocks as he wants but who is ultimately responsible if man decides not to follow God's warnings? In other words, my belief is that God can see where I'm going to drive my car up the road and either warn or congratulate me along the way, but I'm still the driver in the driver's seat... And if I decide not to have God as my pilot, that is my own choosing....

Anyway... back to death. If God doesnt micro-manage us, then getting a cancer or soemthing - is that macromanagement and then our choices are micro? Or how are we meant to udnerstand what is macro and micro? Because they are related. Macro - allows for other choices in micro, and micro - these small choices lead to a different world, i.e. macro.

I would think that God can direct history (like the article states) with his roadblocks and detour signs, place his people in strategic places to guide events, and still keep free will at hand...

But i dont think we will ever understand how all this works. But its amazing anyway - we have free will, feelings,

True again... I don't think we will ever have all the answers in this life. In fact, I kind of like mysteries more sometimes anyways... No one needs to be a know it all...

and all that yet we're no more than a bunch of non-living particles stuck up together

Like you, I refuse to look at people as a meaningless random chance of non-living particles. Every human being, including animals, plants, etc., are a special gift from God, all men being created in the image of God. There is a purpose behind everyone's existence... It's not an accident.

[jenna]