"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Jenwat3, are you by any chance a Jehovah's Witness? If not, of what denomination, if any, do you consider yourself?jenwat3 wrote:I got a question that may seem "dumb". God gives His holidays in the bible. (passover, pentacost, etc.) He also says not to follow man's traditions. So exactly where did Christmas and Easter originate? Are these truly "christian" holidays, or something else?
No, I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I don't really consider myself to belong to any one "denomination". I do believe, however, that all things should be proven, not just believed because the majority follows a certain way or belief. I try not to be a "lemming", but rather prove for myself what the bible is actually teaching about certain subjects. This is why I question everything until it can be proved. Thank you for your interest in this.Byblos wrote:Jenwat3, are you by any chance a Jehovah's Witness? If not, of what denomination, if any, do you consider yourself?jenwat3 wrote:I got a question that may seem "dumb". God gives His holidays in the bible. (passover, pentacost, etc.) He also says not to follow man's traditions. So exactly where did Christmas and Easter originate? Are these truly "christian" holidays, or something else?
What makes Christmas problematic?? While Christmas and easter may have had pagan beginnings, Christianity has captured the original holiday and they celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection. I love celebrating both and love the traditions that go along with them. I think we need to always be cautious not to let the trappings of the holiday overide the reason for the celebration, but I adore both Christmas and Easter....love the songs....love the decorating.....do hate the shopping (have begun to simply amke little token presents, but with 11 neices and nephews and on a teacher's salary, what else!!jenwat3 wrote:No, I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I don't really consider myself to belong to any one "denomination". I do believe, however, that all things should be proven, not just believed because the majority follows a certain way or belief. I try not to be a "lemming", but rather prove for myself what the bible is actually teaching about certain subjects. This is why I question everything until it can be proved. Thank you for your interest in this.Byblos wrote:Jenwat3, are you by any chance a Jehovah's Witness? If not, of what denomination, if any, do you consider yourself?jenwat3 wrote:I got a question that may seem "dumb". God gives His holidays in the bible. (passover, pentacost, etc.) He also says not to follow man's traditions. So exactly where did Christmas and Easter originate? Are these truly "christian" holidays, or something else?
jenwat3 wrote:Why do I find this problematic? Yes for one Christmas and Easter did have pagan beginnings. In Jeremiah 10:2-5, God says "Learn not the way of the HEATHEN, (somes translations say Gentiles),for the customs of the people are futile, For one cuts a tree from the forest, They decorate it with silver and gold,they fasten it with nails and hammers, so it will not topple, they are upright like a palm tree". Is this not describing a "christmas" tree? And this is in Jeremiah, before Christ was ever even born, they did this. Also, Christ was not even born in December!zoegirl wrote: What makes Christmas problematic?? While Christmas and easter may have had pagan beginnings, Christianity has captured the original holiday and they celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection. I love celebrating both and love the traditions that go along with them. I think we need to always be cautious not to let the trappings of the holiday overide the reason for the celebration, but I adore both Christmas and Easter....love the songs....love the decorating.....do hate the shopping (have begun to simply amke little token presents, but with 11 neices and nephews and on a teacher's salary, what else!!
I do like the idea of eschewing the more commercial aspects of the holiday season and try to avoid the mall as much as possible, but must confess I love the decorating and the tree and the smells (pine, cinnamon....) and simply the family memories this brings as well. Listening to the Messiah and the old carols.
I always try to remember what was happening in Mary's life at this time metaphorically speaking....A little over a month away....Christ as a baby, incarnate, moving around inside her, developing, and her awe at this. Pretty awesome....so yes, unabashedly looking forward to the Christmas season and the Christmas CD's are coming out this Thursday!
Love Easter, love the hymns, again, try to focus on the timeline, the triumphal entry, the betrayal, the death,and the resurrection. Hate the fact that it has become so commercial, but love the holiday.
"Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
3(A) for the customs of the peoples are vanity.[a](B) A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4(C) They decorate it with silver and gold;
(D) they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
5Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,
and(E) they cannot speak;
(F) they have to be carried,
for they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them,
(G) for they cannot do evil,
neither is it in them to do good."
6(H) There is none like you, O LORD
jenwat3 wrote: Also, Christmas is a tradition of men. In Matthew 15:9, Christ says "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Also, Mark 7:9. "full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own TRADITIONS".
6And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you(A) hypocrites, as it is written,
(B) "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7in vain do they worship me,
teaching as(C) doctrines the commandments of men.'
8You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
9And he said to them, "You have a fine way of(D) rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10For Moses said,(E) 'Honor your father and your mother'; and,(F) 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 11But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban"' (that is, given to God)[a]— 12then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13thus(G) making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."
jenwat3 wrote: One major thing also, in 1990, in Solon, Ohio, a school board banned all nativity scenes and other Christmas scenes from school property because the believed it violated the separation of church and state. Naturally, they were challenged in court. The board lost the case!! Citizens contended that Christmas was a worldwide TRADITION that was not part of, and transcended, religion. It was deemed to be secular, a part of almost all cultures WORLDWIDE. So why can prayer, bibles and God be taken out of our nations' schools, but not Christmas? The answer is simple-- Christmas has no christian roots. It was not founded by, or supported by, Christ!
zoegirl wrote:jenwat3 wrote:Why do I find this problematic? Yes for one Christmas and Easter did have pagan beginnings. In Jeremiah 10:2-5, God says "Learn not the way of the HEATHEN, (somes translations say Gentiles),for the customs of the people are futile, For one cuts a tree from the forest, They decorate it with silver and gold,they fasten it with nails and hammers, so it will not topple, they are upright like a palm tree". Is this not describing a "christmas" tree? And this is in Jeremiah, before Christ was ever even born, they did this. Also, Christ was not even born in December!zoegirl wrote: What makes Christmas problematic?? While Christmas and easter may have had pagan beginnings, Christianity has captured the original holiday and they celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection. I love celebrating both and love the traditions that go along with them. I think we need to always be cautious not to let the trappings of the holiday overide the reason for the celebration, but I adore both Christmas and Easter....love the songs....love the decorating.....do hate the shopping (have begun to simply amke little token presents, but with 11 neices and nephews and on a teacher's salary, what else!!
I do like the idea of eschewing the more commercial aspects of the holiday season and try to avoid the mall as much as possible, but must confess I love the decorating and the tree and the smells (pine, cinnamon....) and simply the family memories this brings as well. Listening to the Messiah and the old carols.
I always try to remember what was happening in Mary's life at this time metaphorically speaking....A little over a month away....Christ as a baby, incarnate, moving around inside her, developing, and her awe at this. Pretty awesome....so yes, unabashedly looking forward to the Christmas season and the Christmas CD's are coming out this Thursday!
Love Easter, love the hymns, again, try to focus on the timeline, the triumphal entry, the betrayal, the death,and the resurrection. Hate the fact that it has become so commercial, but love the holiday."Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
3(A) for the customs of the peoples are vanity.[a](B) A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4(C) They decorate it with silver and gold;
(D) they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
5Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,
and(E) they cannot speak;
(F) they have to be carried,
for they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them,
(G) for they cannot do evil,
neither is it in them to do good."
6(H) There is none like you, O LORD
Clearly here, Jeremiah is addressing the idols people create for themselves out of trees and gold and silver. The heart lifts this up as an idol. Now, do some people view Christmas trees as idols? Doubt the tree is the problem. (although we could certainly talk about the stewardship of cutting down a perfectly healthy tree....but that is not the issue here
Really don't think this verse applies here.
jenwat3 wrote: Also, Christmas is a tradition of men. In Matthew 15:9, Christ says "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Also, Mark 7:9. "full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own TRADITIONS".
not what that verse is referring to...
6And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you(A) hypocrites, as it is written,
(B) "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7in vain do they worship me,
teaching as(C) doctrines the commandments of men.'
8You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
9And he said to them, "You have a fine way of(D) rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10For Moses said,(E) 'Honor your father and your mother'; and,(F) 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 11But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban"' (that is, given to God)[a]— 12then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13thus(G) making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."
THis is referring to a far more unrighteousness practice of twisting the word of God fro one's own purpose.
If we were teaching false doctrines about salvation and Christ or rejecting God, then you could have an argument. But in celebrating Christmas, we celebrate Christ's incarnation, GOd coming down as the second member of the trinity, and His gift of Himself to humanity. I don't call that rejecting God. Now can the trappings of Christmas distract and pull us away from that? Sure, but that doesn't make the celebration evil, rather our heart for falling away.
jenwat3 wrote: One major thing also, in 1990, in Solon, Ohio, a school board banned all nativity scenes and other Christmas scenes from school property because the believed it violated the separation of church and state. Naturally, they were challenged in court. The board lost the case!! Citizens contended that Christmas was a worldwide TRADITION that was not part of, and transcended, religion. It was deemed to be secular, a part of almost all cultures WORLDWIDE. So why can prayer, bibles and God be taken out of our nations' schools, but not Christmas? The answer is simple-- Christmas has no christian roots. It was not founded by, or supported by, Christ!
Not denying this (although I would rather lose the right to have nativity scenes than concede that Christmas is simply a cute tradition)....
You admit this, but cannot see that Christmas was, and is, not from Christ?
HOWEVER, why this points to a reason for rejecting a celebration of our Lord and Savior? Does having a christmas tree, wreaths, a nativy scene that are visual reminders of Christ evil? Does the fact that I love to sing Christmas carols that celebrate Christ evil? Is giving gifts necessarily evil? No, I think we should do this, as with all things, wisely, especially how we teach children, both directly and indirectly, the reasons for celebrating Christmas.
The reasons for doing it today may not SEEM evil, but God clearly condemns the blending of paganism and true Christ worship. He wants nothing to do with it.
The fact that they were one celebrated on the same time period of the year as pagan holidays means really nothing to us now, other than the power of Christ to change a culture. Instead of celebrating some meaningless solstice event, we celebrate Christ!! Instead of celebrating Spring as some seasonal festival, we celebrate Christ's conquering death!
Just for clarity, Jenwat3 does not believe in the trinity nor (if I'm not mistaken) in the deity of Christ. Hence my question if she were JW.zoegirl wrote:Of course we don't know what day it was...so what? We celebrate His birth! Not His birth on some specific day!! and His birth is an INCRDIBLE thing to celebrate. God incarnated?!?! Yeah, I'll celebrate that
)
)Jen, I appreciate that you are not a lemmings who just follows what everybody else believes. I just can't help but notice how you seem to have latched on to the Watchtowers doctrines which are pretty world wide in themselves. I just hope that your open mind stays open and that you at least look into other worldviews and be open to letting God show you the truth.Jen wrote:People may think they are celebrating Christ's birth, but how can we celebrate something when we don't actually even know what day to celebrate? Christ wasnt born in December, and it wasn't His birth that was important anyway, it was his death. On a different subject, He didn't die on Friday nor was He resurrected on Sunday, so why the reason for Easter?
