Evidence for God from Science

One question that has me confused. If we have free will, how exactly does prophecy in the bible work? Since the end of the world is foretold, wouldn't we have free will to stop it? Or do our efforts make no difference because it was all predestined to happen?

jenwat3 wrote:One question that has me confused. If we have free will, how exactly does prophecy in the bible work? Since the end of the world is foretold, wouldn't we have free will to stop it? Or do our efforts make no difference because it was all predestined to happen?

Good question, Jen!

I believe that God's will supercedes our free wills. It seems that throughout the bible there are choices and consequences when it comes to following God and everything associated with that. To me this would imply free will...but in the instance of prophecies that God promises will take place, who's will do you suppose is stronger?

I know there are tons of scripture that seem to indicate free will, and tons of scripture that seem to indicate God's sovereignty. I believe somehow for God to be God both have to be true. However if I never figure it out I don't worry because I know that God is in control.

I believe that simply because God knows what will happen doesn't mean we don't have freewill. He simply knows what choices we are going to make. When he chose to send MOses, he knew Moses wasn't going to want to go. He also knew that after a little prodding, he would go.

I'm not educated on the end times at all. I have no idea how it is going to happen or anything. God does. He also knows who, if anyone, is going to try and stop it and also how they are going to fail at stopping it.

A good/bad analogy i heard was a book. The characters in the book still make their own decisions, even if i know what is going to happen. The bad part of the analogy is that the characters don't have free will, since they are pretend, but it helps to paint a little bit of a picture.

Thanks to both of you for the input and ideas. Since I have to CHOOSE one , I'll choose..., well, God knows!

jenwat3 wrote:Thanks to both of you for the input and ideas. Since I have to CHOOSE one , I'll choose..., well, God knows!

I think if you can't understand something, but they both seem right, it is often better to accept both ideas as true and hold them in contention until you figure out a solution.

I would recommend looking into Bill Craig's Middle Knowledge position as I think it provides just such a solution. At least it works for me.

jenwat3 wrote:Thanks to both of you for the input and ideas. Since I have to CHOOSE one , I'll choose..., well, God knows!

But this seems to make God a powerless spectator and not a God who is soveriegn and in control of every detail of His creation.

No, definitely not, and that wasn't my point. All I was saying is that if God knows how things will turn out then it seems we don't really have free will. But I got my answer.

jenwat3 wrote:No, definitely not, and that wasn't my point. All I was saying is that if God knows how things will turn out then it seems we don't really have free will. But I got my answer.

I'm glad you did, because I'm still confused. :-O

What exactly are you confused about?

jenwat3 wrote:What exactly are you confused about?

It's too long of a list.

Gotta start somewhere! I would like to help your confusion if possible. At least give me a few pointers.

jenwat3 wrote:One question that has me confused. If we have free will, how exactly does prophecy in the bible work? Since the end of the world is foretold, wouldn't we have free will to stop it? Or do our efforts make no difference because it was all predestined to happen?

Right - here are my 2 pennies worth.

We do have freewill, but only from our point of view. Since God is outside of Time he can see the outcome of our choices. It doesn't mean that we didn't freely make the choice in the first place - it is just that God has a unique persepective.

For instance = God will know what I will have for Breakfast tomorrow (because that is obviously important in the big cosmological scheme of things ). But I will still choose to have Weetabix.

Imagine we are living our lives on a 2D line. Linear with no going back. Now God lives in a Sphere surrounding that line. He can therefore see all aspects of the line and move to any point. - where as we can only see the present and move forward. Our choices are still our own though, but God can see them, from all angles.

That is how I visualise it anyway.

Silvertusk

I think this is an excellent point, silvertusk. That one makes alot of sense. thank you.

I heard Chuck Swindoll give a good expanation of this FreeWill vs God's Foreknowledge thing and I'll try to reproduce it here:

It's like if you record a football game and watch it after you get home from the movies. When you get home, the outcome of the game is known and nothing you can do will change it; but every pass, every tackle on the recording is a result of Free Will - nothing was pre-determined.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I heard Chuck Swindoll give a good explanation of this Freewill vs God's Foreknowledge thing and I'll try to reproduce it here:

It's like if you record a football game and watch it after you get home from the movies. When you get home, the outcome of the game is known and nothing you can do will change it; but every pass, every tackle on the recording is a result of Free Will - nothing was pre-determined.

FL

That easier to grasp, but what about Free will vs God's sovereignty?