Evidence for God from Science

You will understand my question when you read verse 9

Jesus was punished and tortured here on earth, did he also suffer in hell for a period before rising from the dead?

If so that really puts more meaning in his sacrifice than I had previously had. I understood his sacrifice but this would put some serious weight on the matter.

Also watching Passion of the Christ; that put the suffering here on earth in to some serious perspective.



ephesians 4:7-11
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore He says:


“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”[a]

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

It is my understanding that before Jesus came to earth as a man there was a holding place for mens souls. This was called Abraham's Bosom. It was divided into two sides where the spirits could talk to each other. On the good side were the souls waiting for Christ, these people through their belief or works were judged worthy. On the other side was hadies which is a place where the people are waiting for the judgement day. When Christ died he went to Abrahams Bosom and collected those who were waiting for Him. Some people were actually resurrected at this time and they walked the streets of Jerusalem. He presented Himself and the souls He gathered from Abrahams Bosom to the God Head as the first fruits. The people who die in Jesus now "sleep" and await the rapture. The others sleep and await the judgement.

Frank, can you give me some scriptures that reference this? I'd like to look them up.

jenwat3 wrote:Frank, can you give me some scriptures that reference this? I'd like to look them up.

Jen

wow this ties in to your question on the other page.

Yeah, I like to look up scriptures. It's a good way for me to study.

Remember in that parables people do not have names.

Luke 16:19-31
1Th 4:16
Act 26:23
John 5:28
Mat 27:52,53

This is a good start but a study of the ancient Jewish feast will uncover more.

The entire universe has recognizable patterns. A discussion of the Fibonacci numbers would show repeating patterns in God's creation. Just as a shape such as the spiral of a nautilus shell shows up in the spiral for a galaxy, so too patterns in Biblical scripture repeat in seemingly unconnected events.

In scripture we are supposed to find the patterns so that we can unlock the hidden detail of God's Word. As with any interpretation we may misapply the connections so we have to be careful. As with any scriptural interpretation you should study the scripture and form your own conclusions.

Everything in the Universe is connected together. That connection is the Creator. The history of the world and the history of man as told in scripture contains many feast and ceremonies, many of these are allusions to future events. In scripture the language of the future events matches the terms used to describe the feast and ceremonies. The pattern of behavior in the ceremonies is an allusion to the events in the future. Once we understand the traditional Jewish feast and ceremonies we see these patterns repeat themselves in fulfilled prophesy and unfulfilled prophesy.

The Ancient Jewish Wedding

At some point a man and a woman come together. This happened in ancient times by the fathers of the bride and groom marrying off their sons and daughters. The sons and daughters had various amounts of say in the matter. A son could ask his father if he could marry a particular girl. If he agreed then the son would ask her to come over to his father's house. This in essence is the manner in which he asks the woman to become his wife. Now she may know him and the family well but the statement means something special. A time is set for her to come over and meet his father.
When she comes over they sit and discuss the details of the marriage contract. A price is paid for her for entering into the contract. The contract is written and signed. A glass of wine is poured and the groom offers the glass to the bride. If she drinks from the cup then the contract is agreed to but if she does not then the deal is off. If she does agree she is given some gifts which may be some of the family jewelry. Once the father welcomes the bride to the family the groom says that he will go to his father's house and prepare a place for them. The bride returns to her parent's house.

The woman remains at her parents' home and waits to be summoned to the wedding ceremony. She will be packed and ready to go at a moment's notice. She may be summoned at night so she should have a lantern and oil with her to light the way for her if he arrives at night. Meanwhile the father prepares a place for the bride and groom. It can be a long time before she is summoned. One to two years was not uncommon. At some point that only the father knows he tells his son to go get his bride. The son gathers his friends and they go to her house shouting and blowing horns. She goes with the groom to his father's house for the wedding ceremony.

The wedding and following feast last seven days.

The details of the Jewish wedding have changed over time and there are many versions of the events that lead to the wedding. The ancient wedding like many other ceremonial traditions are a foreshadowing of future events. So when we read that the church is the bride of Christ we can look at the rest of the events in the tradition and see how the future will unfold for us. The language of prophesy uses the language of tradition and the events of prophesy use the events of tradition. In addition to tradition as a foreshadow of future events the harvest in Israel is also a pattern used to describe future events.


The Three Harvest of Ancient Israel

We will now discuss the growing season in ancient Israel. The early rains occur in the October / November time frame. So the fields are planted with seed in anticipation of the early rain. There is a latter rain that ends around the beginning of April.

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Jam 5:7,8

This verse uses the reference to the husbandman and rains to describe future events.

There are three harvests we will talk about. The first is barley that is harvested or gathered after the latter rains end. The second is the wheat harvest. The third harvest is the grapes which are later in the year.

After the barley is harvested the grain is separated from the chaff. The chaff is a shell which covers the grain and is not eaten. The chaff is removed by tossing the mixture in the air and letting the wind blow away the lighter chaff. The barley grain is easily separated so there is no need to grind the barley to loosen the chaff. Wheat on the other hand needs to be ground to loosen the grain from the chaff. This is done by placing the wheat grain on a thrashing floor and dragging a board over the grain. The board would have rocks embedded in it and someone would stand on the board as it was dragged around on top of the wheat. The board in Latin is called a tribulum. When the grinding is done the loosened chaff is separated by wind. The third harvest, grapes, would be gathered from the vine and then crushed in a winepress. This would be done by someone walking on the grapes which would crush them releasing the juice.

The First Fruits Offering

As each crop ripened the part of the field which ripened first was marked off with a ring or cord and reserved for an offering at the Temple in Jerusalem. These first fruits, as they are called, were cut and offered before the rest of the field would be harvested. In addition to this the corners of the field were marked off and not harvested. This was left for the poor to glean what they could from these areas. So the first fruits are for an offering and the corners are not reaped.

And Ruth the Moabitess said unto Naomi, Let me now go to the field, and glean heads of grain after, him in whose sight I shall find grace. And she said unto her, Go, my daughter.
And she went, and came, and gleaned in the field after the reapers: and her hap was to light on a part of the field belonging unto Boaz, who was of the kindred, of Elimelech.
Rth 2:2,3



The law of first fruits is described by Moses in the book of Exodus. The Jewish people knew well the special place first fruits held with God.

Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
Exo 13:2

And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labors, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labors out of the field.
Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before, the Lord GOD.
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.
Exo 23:16-18

And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 19:9,10




The Seven Feast

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:16,17

The seven feast are a foreshadow of things to come. Some events that were prophesized have come true and others remain to be fulfilled.

The seven feasts are:

Passover
Unleavened Bread
Firstfruits
Pentecost (feast of weeks)

There is a break of four or five months before the later feast.

Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacle

Passover

When Moses was telling the Pharaoh to let his people go several acts of God were performed on Egypt and the Pharaoh's people. The last act was to take the first born of Egypt by the angel of death. Moses told the Jews to sacrifice a lamb without blemish and place the blood around the doorpost of their house. The angel of death would then Passover their house and go to the next house to kill the firstborn. After the Jews left Egypt they would celebrate Passover by tying a lamb without blemish to their doorpost 4 days before Passover, and then kill the lamb and take its blood and place it around their doorpost.

The Passover is a foreshadow of the crucifixion of Christ. Remember that John the Baptist called Him the Lamb of God. The lamb's blood protected the Jews from the angel of death. Christ blood protects His church from judgment. His blood washes away sin and protects the believer from the Devil. The lamb was tied to the doorpost for four days. This was done so the family would have a personal relationship with the lamb. We are told to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Whoever hears My Word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
1 Peter 1:18,19

At the Passover dinner there are four silver cups at the table. One is not used. It is reserved for the prophet on his return.

At some point in the dinner someone goes to the door and checks to see if the prophet Elisha has come. The prophet when he comes will tell them that the Messiah has come. The Jews have been waiting for many years for Elisha to come again to announce the arrival of the Messiah.

Unleavened Bread

Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:15

Leven represented sin, leavened bread is the bread that has yeast in it. Before the feast of unleavened bread you were to clean your house of all crumbs of leavened bread. This was done on the night before Passover eve. During the feast three pieces of unleavened bread were gathered, then the middle piece was broken and placed in a napkin and hidden in the house. At some point the children would search for the napkin with the bread and the one who found it was given a gift.

The three pieces of unleavened bread are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Son being the middle piece. The unleavened bread represents something without sin, Christ is without sin. Who finds Christ receives the gift of everlasting life. The child who found the unleavened bread received a gift.

Unleavened bread is made with stripes and puncture holes. Christ was punctured and had stripes. His hands and feet were punctured by nails. He received stripes from the whip of the Roman soldiers. His side was punctured by a spear.

He says: I am the bread of life. John 6:48

If anyone eats of this bread, he will live for ever.
John 6:51

Firstfruits

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:10,11

The period of forty-nine days after the sheaf of wheat was waved in the Temple was the first fruits duration. This offering was made so the harvest would be good and the grain plentiful. The firstfruits were gathered from the sealed off section of the field.


And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:15

But now is Christ risen
from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Co 15:20

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Co 15:22,23

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mat 27:52,53


In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:13

Pentecost (feast of weeks)

The feast of weeks celebrates the day Moses received the Ten Commandments from God, written on stone tablets. This is the giving of the Law. When Moses came down from the mountain after he received the tablets he saw a golden calf and dancing. He had the Levites kill about 3000 of the people.

And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Deu 16:10

Pentecost was the fiftieth day after Passover and one of the three times all men were required to go to the temple. You were to bring two loaves of leavened bread as a wave offering to the temple. The two loaves are thought to represent the Jews and gentiles.

The day of Pentecost is the day that Jesus started the Church. The day that the Holy Spirit entered His disciples so they could spread the Word.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:1-4

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41

Note that three thousand were saved on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit entered the disciples. When Moses came down with the Law three thousand were lost.

The Break

The first four feasts are allusions to events that have already taken place. The last three feasts are allusions to events in our future. We are currently in the break between the former and latter times. This is the time that the Church is to grow and the Word of God is to be spread around the world. With satellites broadcasting the Word around the world we are fulfilling the last predicted events before the latter times.

There was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost, there will be another before the end times. The Holy Spirit is described as wind or rain. Just as wind separates the grain from the chaff the Holy Spirit separates sin from your spirit. An outpouring of the Spirit is written as rain, we have received the early rain and now or soon to come will be the latter rain.

Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days, will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
Hos 6:1-3

It says in scripture that a thousand years is like a day to the Lord. So the previous verse could be saying that after 2000 years and then sometime in the third millennium we will receive the end times prophesy. A Bible year is 360 days so we are approximately 2002 years since His crucifixion.

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until, he receive the early and latter rain.
Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Jam 5:7


And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:28,29


And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:17

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:12-16

The Feast of Trumpets

On the first day of the seventh month hold a sacred assembly and do no work. It is a day for you to sound the trumpets
Num 29:1


To sound the trumpets is a remembrance of the grace of God when he gave Abraham a ram to sacrifice instead of his son Isaac.

There were two types of trumpets, one long and made from silver and another made from a ram's horn. The ram's horn is called a shofar in Hebrew.

It appears that the Feast of Trumpets is an allusion to the rapture.

Day of Atonement, Feast of Yon Kippur

The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the Lord by fire.
Lev 23:27



And that son that is priest in his stead shall put them on seven days, when he cometh into the tabernacle of the congregation to minister in the holy place.
And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place.
And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
And if aught of the flesh of the consecrations, or of the bread, remain unto the morning, then thou shalt burn the remainder with fire: it shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
And thus shalt thou do unto Aaron, and to his sons, according to all things which I have commanded thee: seven days shalt thou consecrate them.
Exo 29:30-35

A goat was chosen by lot to be a sin offering at the temple. It was sacrificed. A second goat (the scapegoat) was chosen by lot. This goat had blood from the sacrifice of the first goat placed on its head. A crimson strip of wool was wrapped around the scapegoat's horn. The scapegoat was released in the wilderness to die. Jewish tradition says that after the scapegoat died the strip of wool would turn white. Jewish tradition also says that in the forty years prior to the destruction of the temple by the Romans the strip did not turn white.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Heb 9:28


So Christ took on the sins of the world. The line of the priest had ended for Israel when Christ was born, He became king and priest.


This feast is about being accountable for your sins. In the tribulation period the whole of mankind will be held accountable for its sin. Man will make a choice to follow Satan or to follow Christ.

Feast of Tabernacles

Celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress.
Deut 16:13


This feast is after the harvest and celebrates the produce of the harvest. It also celebrates a new beginning. This is when the reading of the Torah starts anew at genesis 1:1 in all synagogues around the world.

This feast is an allusion to the millennium when after the harvest of the tribulation the earth starts anew.


I hope this may make reading some of the verses easier, I know it did for me. All of these terms and events are also in prophesy.

Frank, do you keep these feasts?

jenwat3,

No I do not keep the feast. I think we should all know them and honor them at the appropriate times.

I am very new to scripture. I read the bible for the first time three years ago. I study a bunch and have studied to really understand prophesy. I am writing a book about my path to understanding. This is a gathering of various info over three years. I am also studying spiritual warfare. A lot of Christians do not believe it exist. So sad.

Have you ever studied the second layer of communication in some verses? Like psalm 2 where the Trinity talk to each other? If so please look over my thread on the Book of Job. Would love to hear comments.

JCS,

All other discussion notwithstanding, a simple reply to your question is that Jesus did go to "Hell" for three days. But the "Hell" He went to is not the same place that an unbeliever goes to. The word we translate "Hell" is from the Greek word "Hades," and in Jesus' day, "Hades" was used to translate the Hebrew word "Sheol." Now, "Sheol," simply means "the place of the dead." It doesn't matter if it is the righteous or the unrighteous dead. If you died, you were said to be in Sheol. That is not to say that everyone who died, righteous or unrighteous went to the same place. That is reading more into "Sheol" that is necessary. Again, the word just means "The place of the dead," which is how the word "Hades" was used by the Jews.

The problem is that we have taken the Greek concept of Hades as a place of torment, imported Christian features of the Lake of Fire into it, and forgotten the Jewish usage. Then, we read a Jew talking about Hades, we get a picture of devils, pitchforks, fire, red hot caverns, and all the rest. That's just not what is being talked about.

The place Jesus went for three days can also be called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. Paradise, we can say, was the place with Sheol (Hell) that the righteous dead went when they died.

Hope that helps.

God bless

Both words "sheol" and "hades" mean the grave. Therefore anyone who dies goes to the grave and are dead until resurrection day. This includes both 'good' and "wicked" people.

Jesus never went to hell..it is as simple as this..When Jesus was on earth He was down(descended from heaven) and after His resurrection was taken up(ascended).To ascend is no implication of coming from hell.Righteous and wicked,alike are in their graves and shall be awakened according to their final standing in works...the righteous first and to eternal life,the dead after a million years to extinction.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jac3510 wrote:JCS,

All other discussion notwithstanding, a simple reply to your question is that Jesus did go to "Hell" for three days. But the "Hell" He went to is not the same place that an unbeliever goes to. The word we translate "Hell" is from the Greek word "Hades," and in Jesus' day, "Hades" was used to translate the Hebrew word "Sheol." Now, "Sheol," simply means "the place of the dead." It doesn't matter if it is the righteous or the unrighteous dead. If you died, you were said to be in Sheol. That is not to say that everyone who died, righteous or unrighteous went to the same place. That is reading more into "Sheol" that is necessary. Again, the word just means "The place of the dead," which is how the word "Hades" was used by the Jews.

The problem is that we have taken the Greek concept of Hades as a place of torment, imported Christian features of the Lake of Fire into it, and forgotten the Jewish usage. Then, we read a Jew talking about Hades, we get a picture of devils, pitchforks, fire, red hot caverns, and all the rest. That's just not what is being talked about.

The place Jesus went for three days can also be called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. Paradise, we can say, was the place with Sheol (Hell) that the righteous dead went when they died.

Hope that helps.

God bless

Which would also explain why Jesus said to the thief that today he will be with him in paradise. No need to move commas around to explain it away or for any other meaning to be injected than what it plainly states.

Note, Byblos, that WE are not the ones who are "moving" the comma around. This was actually done by men who wanted to inject their belief of "hell". If you truly want to understand the meaning of such verses, it is best to read several different versions and compare them, and notes that may be in the margins.

jenwat3 wrote:Both words "sheol" and "hades" mean the grave. Therefore anyone who dies goes to the grave and are dead until resurrection day. This includes both 'good' and "wicked" people.

No, it doesn't. That's a mistranslation, as is "pit" and other such ideas. The word for "grave" is qeber, from qabar, which means "to bury."

The exact meaning of sheol is an area of debate among scholars today. I'll not pretend I have the corner on the market. But that the word has a far more significant meaning than simply "grave" is obvious. Given the broad usage of the word, it is best to understand it broadly as meaning "the abode of the dead." This makes more sense when you consider the fact that Jews did not consider human beings to duality of body and soul like the Greeks did. For them, the body and soul were inseperable. In fact, the very word to describe it, "nephesh", described all living beings, both man and animal. Humans were thought to have s "spirit" ("ruach"), but again, that was no different from any other animal. The ruach was not thought to be a separate entity.

The point is that when a person died, it was the entire nephesh that went into Sheol. The entire nephesh awaited resurrection at the last day. So while I agree with you that Sheol is very closely associated with the grave, it is a mistake to equate the two terms.

Finally, as an aside, keep in mind that the Greek word hades is used to translate sheol in the OT, and it is the word God inspired the apostles to use when they penned the NT in discussing the idea. Certainly, Hades is not a synonym with the grave. All in all, the NASB has provided the best translation. "Hell," "pit" and "grave" are all, while closely related to the original word, misleading. The word should simply be transliterated: Sheol. It is the abode of the dead.

The abode of the dead, yes. Which is the grave. Keep in mind that no one has seen heaven or the face of God. Also, "For in the GRAVE, who shall give You thanks?" Therefore, if people are actually in Abraham's bosom, or a "resting place", they would not be able to thank God for this. It certainly wouldn't be "paradise". Also remember "for the dead know nothing". So they are DEAD until resurrection.