Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:

frankbaginski wrote:The reasons for the flood and all other judgements in the Bible come from the creation. When God created free will He also allowed the possibility that His creation would take a wrong turn. When Eve and Adam took of the forbidden fruit they brought on death to the creation. Natural evil was established in the creation and more than likely decay started as well.

I believe this makes God's character out to be rash, and this also attributes power to Satan which he does not have and negates the Scriptural belief that God created everything. Only in the YEC interpretation does the whole world - animals, plant life, etc - pay for Adam and Eve's sin, and does God's creation become changed so carnivorous activity and so forth enters into the world. Rather I believe God created this world to be temporal on purpose, and physical death, carnivorous animals, and the like is all a natural part of the world He created.

frank wrote:In the flood God was wiping out the bad seed caused by the fallen angels who came to women on earth.

However, God failed to wipe out these "fallen angels" if that was the reason for the flood. To quote a page at ecclesia.org:

• In Genesis 6:4, "There were giants [nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that... the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Also in Numbers 13:33, "And there we saw the giants [nephilim], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants:" "Giants" is the same Hebrew word #5303. Why weren't they destroyed during the flood? (http://ecclesia.org/truth/flood.html)

What makes you say they were fallen? Because they had sex?

kurieuo wrote:However, God failed to wipe out these "fallen angels" if that was the reason for the flood. To quote a page at ecclesia.org:

• In Genesis 6:4, "There were giants [nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that... the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Also in Numbers 13:33, "And there we saw the giants [nephilim], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants:" "Giants" is the same Hebrew word #5303. Why weren't they destroyed during the flood? (http://ecclesia.org/truth/flood.html)

At first reading the quote in numbers may seem like a factual account, but it's part of the quoted false report of the spies. Of the 12 spies only Joshua and Caleb trusting God, where keen to enter and take possession of the land the other 10 didn't want to.

Cos of the false report the whole nation was too scared to enter the promised land and they turned against Moses for bringing them there.
The lord said to Moses 'How long will these people treat me with contempt?...I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them' (Num14:11)

God intended to strike down all of the people with plague but Moses interceded however some didn't escape God's Justice. WHy? cos they brought back an untruthful report of the land (Number14:36-7)

When they eventually battled with the Akanim they defeated them as well as many other inhabiting tribe. When they entered Canaan there was no mention of the Nephilim or encounters with them. Surely amoung the descriptions of the batttles that ensued, encounters with the Nephilim would have been mentioned?

There is no mention of the supposedly post flood Nephilim having been destroyed so if they did indeed exist after the flood where are they now?

In the 'evil report' it would appear that the spies gave the descendants of Anak an unwarrented embellishment as to their power by suggesting they were decended from the Nephilim.

These Anakim/Anakites were descendants of the post flood people. They couldn't be descended from pre-flood Nephilim since Noah was 'perfect in his generations' and not a nephilim.

I like your respone WWJnotD. It makes good sense to me.

The idea of angels having physical relationships with women is interesting but disputed, if I may take a moment to continue this track on the flood thread. Augustine's "City of God" offers a popular view that "sons of god" and "daughters of men" refers to the males of the godly line of Seth and females from the "ungody" line of Cain. Some question how a limited, noncorporeal, spiritual being can have a physical relationship with a corporeal human being and it is a valid point. Nevertheless, there are many mentions of giants in mythology and in some mythologies, Noah and some of his descendants are called giants. Maybe this a misinterpretation of their virtuous stature or greatness, rather than their physical stature? Great men are often called giants in their field even today.

Actually, while I don't know the specific verse, angels cannot reproduce. God did not make them this way. So, FM, your point does make sense. I'll find the verses and post them.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I would like to point out it says "and also after that"

1Sa 17:4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
1Sa 17:5 And he had a helmet of brass upon his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail; and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of brass.
1Sa 17:6 And he had greaves of brass upon his legs, and a target of brass between his shoulders.
1Sa 17:7 And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam; and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron: and one bearing a shield went before him.
1Sa 17:8 And he stood and cried unto the armies of Israel, and said unto them, Why are ye come out to set your battle in array? am not I a Philistine, and ye servants to Saul? choose you a man for you, and let him come down to me.

Now one could allegorize Goliath and say he was just an average guy with a mean attitude. I take this at face value and say he was a giant. In fact the reason David picked up three stones is not that he thought he would miss, it is because Goliath had two brothers. I think there were giants after the flood. As to the report of the spies that Moses sent: I view it not so much as what they say but their fear. I suspect they saw an army far better than them and if they had giants who knows. But God had said to them to conquer the land. They should have trusted God and came back with a report that said the army is huge but we will wipe them out because God is with us. It is the attitude not the data in the report that God was angry about.

For the record I am more in agreement with Forum Monk and Jenwat who I believe make good observations and which actually appear to align with the article on the GodandScience.org website regarding the Nephilim. However, I was still going to point out what frank mentioned, that is, the "and also after that" of Genesis 6:4.

Frank - if the Nephilim existed after the flood, then how do you reconcile this with your previous statement: "In the flood God was wiping out the bad seed caused by the fallen angels who came to women on earth." If we go by your interpretation of the Nephilim and this statement, then God failed to do in the flood what you think the flood was for.

Kurieuo wrote:For the record I am more in agreement with Forum Monk and Jenwat who I believe make good observations and which actually appear to align with the article on the GodandScience.org website regarding the Nephilim. However, I was still going to point out what frank mentioned, that is, the "and also after that" of Genesis 6:4.

Frank - if the Nephilim existed after the flood, then how do you reconcile this with your previous statement: "In the flood God was wiping out the bad seed caused by the fallen angels who came to women on earth." If we go by your interpretation of the Nephilim and this statement, then God failed to do in the flood what you think the flood was for.

Kurieuo, that is probably one article I would have to disagree with Rich about. Although both views are questionable, I would lean in favor of the Nephilim or Giants argument like Hugh Ross.

But perhaps we can take this up in another topic...

Gman wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:For the record I am more in agreement with Forum Monk and Jenwat who I believe make good observations and which actually appear to align with the article on the GodandScience.org website regarding the Nephilim. However, I was still going to point out what frank mentioned, that is, the "and also after that" of Genesis 6:4.

Frank - if the Nephilim existed after the flood, then how do you reconcile this with your previous statement: "In the flood God was wiping out the bad seed caused by the fallen angels who came to women on earth." If we go by your interpretation of the Nephilim and this statement, then God failed to do in the flood what you think the flood was for.

Kurieuo, that is probably one article I would have to disagree with Rich about. Although both views are questionable, I would lean in favor of the Nephilim or Giants argument like Hugh Ross.

But perhaps we can take this up in another topic...

Actually, I have thoughts, but not sure exactly what I believe. I certainly do not believe the Nephilim are angels, or furthermore that God would even allow them to breed with humanity. Such would require God to design compatible sexual reproduction between angels and humans and this I sincerely doubt God would do.

From reading the Genesis 6 passage I am more inclined to believe the Nephilim and sons of God mentioned were like warlords who had lots of power and were corrupt. Perhaps a period in humanity's history where the whole of civilisation was run on fear by evil dictators who did as they pleased. I do not necessarily believe they needed to have been "giants", however they were strong, powerful, violent, cruel and feared who did whatever and took whoever (for example, the daughters of ordinary men) they wanted. In order for the whole of humanity to have become corrupt, humanity in general must have grown accustomed to the many violent evils and as such practiced them also. We can see this is possible today, for example in Africa where children are recruited for war and end up being indoctrinated and growing accustom to performing many violent evils like torture, rape and rampant killing. (Africa's Children Of War)

That said, I am open to who the Nephilim, or "sons of God", or "daughters of men" might more precisely be. The main thing I think is to understand the corruptness at this time in our history.

From what I can remeber, the only text which described the angels with respect to their "domestic" relations is this (repeated in otherGosples as well):

Matthew 22:29-31 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,

This is kind of vague in the fallen angel context. Like Kurieuo, I am torn. Certainly, large people have existed anomolously but there is no physical evidence of a race of giants, before or after the flood.

In response to the question about fallen angels.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The fallen angels were not destroyed in the flood but the bad seed was. The angels that did leave their own habitation were removed by God. It does not say that others after the flood did not do the same. There is scripture to support that this indeed happened. In Revelation the Holy Ghost withdraws from the earth and Satan can then use his powers. This is clearly laid out. So on earth today we have our helper(Holy Ghost) and that seems to be the reason the fallen angels cannot do what they did before Christ came to the earth as a man.

Angels clearly go back and forth between heaven and earth, this is clearly shown in the Book of Job. This being said they can also appear as humans. There are many examples of this as well. Angels were also created with free will. So they can sin as man does. It appears to me that one of the sins an angel could do would be to take on human form and interfere with God's creation. It also appears that to tempt man does not result in being chained. Fallen angels are in the Book of Daniel. They are also referenced in Eze (magog) and of course many more places.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Guys... I split this off the Flood debate since it was going off the subject a bit.

Forum Monk wrote:This is kind of vague in the fallen angel context. Like Kurieuo, I am torn. Certainly, large people have existed anomolously but there is no physical evidence of a race of giants, before or after the flood.

Well don't tear yourself up too much over this... I won't either... As I was saying before, I'm not entirely certain what is the truth here about the nephilim either. I tend to agree however with Frank that they were fallen angles that interbred with humans however weird that may sound. It sounds kind of sci-fi to me anyways...

I actually studied this a number of years ago so I will need to pick up some notes on it. The Bible has actually bits and pieces of the story in it's framework but the real story comes alive mainly in the Book of Enoch (as mentioned in the Bible). It is in this book where the story really picks up (even mentioning the spirits names) but it is in other books as well such as the Book of Jubilees, the Dead Sea Scrolls and others. I would suggest you get these books if you want to read up on it more.

More on that here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Exactly what are the Nephilim? I do not know and the scholars do not agree at all. I have posted what I believe and can show why but I don't know for sure. I have heard about the fallen angels from a few sources but the best I found was from Dr. Chuck Missler. You can find out about his books and what not from khouse.org.

Now there are people that feel we are in the millenium right now. I don't believe that but I am not going to say they are wrong. I just believe something different and we have interpreted scripture differently.

frankbaginski wrote:Exactly what are the Nephilim? I do not know and the scholars do not agree at all. I have posted what I believe and can show why but I don't know for sure. I have heard about the fallen angels from a few sources but the best I found was from Dr. Chuck Missler. You can find out about his books and what not from khouse.org.

Certain angels (back in the OT times) were apparently dispatched to Earth simply to watch over the people (called "The Watchers"). They soon begin to lust for the human women.. The children produced by these relationships are called the Nephilim or the Emim, Rephaim and Anakim (human giants).

frankbaginski wrote:Now there are people that feel we are in the millenium right now. I don't believe that but I am not going to say they are wrong. I just believe something different and we have interpreted scripture differently.

Some say that the alien's that people encounter today could be the return of these angels again (as prophetically told by Christ in Matthew 24:37). Often some of these encounters are sexual in nature. Who knows.... I guess if we start seeing 10 - 13 ft tall basketball players out there on the court, we will know where they came from...

More on that here: http://www.alienresistance.org/ or http://www.alienresistance.org/christianufo.htm

Here is a little more detail about the Nephilim. Before the flood and in the end times

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

In Jude 1:6 The word habitation in greek is oiketerion, in 2Co 5:2 the word house is oiketerion as well. So with this in mind we see the angels remove that covering they have. This was done to go after strange flesh. From the reading of 2Co 5:2 it is this covering we seek.

In 2Pe 2:4,6 we see the connection between the chained angels and Noah's flood. The reference to Sodom and Gomorrah could be a reference to the type of sin they did. (strange flesh)

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;

In the end times

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,

The iron mixed with miry clay is the remains of the roman empire. At least the people and the geographic location. The "they" here could refer to fallen angels that would make nephilim as well. It says they shall mingle their seed with the seed of men, so they are not men.