Question on Baptism

[phiver4]

I have always believed that "Baptism" referred to being "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" and was part of Christ's gift of Salvation to us once we accepted Him as our Lord and Savior.

I Peter 3:21- "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Does this verse mean that Baptism by water is necessary for Salvation? Peter says, "It (water) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Also, Eric Lyons of the Apologetics Press, states: "Although baptism is no less, nor more, important than any other of God's commands regarding what to do to be saved, the New Testament clearly teaches that water immersion is the point at which a person is saved by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/617 and is in the text of a debate about Bible discrepancies)

I have heard many different views on this subject and I would like to hear how some of you feel about this.

[Judah]

Phiver4, this question will be answered differently by members of different denominations, and each will claim that their interpretation is sound Biblically.

The God and Science home page points to an article off site which is well worth reading as it does a thorough exploration of Scripture on this subject. Check it out here: Water Baptism . . . Is it Necessary for Salvation?.

Come back to further the discussion after reading that paper. I would be interested to hear your own conclusions.

[phiver4]

Judah, thank you for that link, it was very helpful in backing up what I believe. From that source come the verses that I base my belief on this issue: that a person is to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and shall be granted eternal life.

15). . .that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16)For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17)For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18)"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:15-18 (NKJ)

The author brought up some excellent points that I will save and file for future reference.

I believe that I was "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit upon believing in Jesus and that Baptism by water is an outward statement in which you may affirm this belief in front of the Church and other believers but is not required as a "part" of one's Salvation.

[jenna]

Acts 2:38-39; "Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and then you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit." In other words, you recieve the Holy Spirit AFTER you are baptized.

[phiver4]

Jenwat3,
I just want to make sure I understand you. In reference to above, when you say "Baptized", do you mean in Jesus' name and not water? Thank you for your patience with me on this.

[jenna]

The verse I gave you sounds like a baptism in Jesus' Name, but from what I understand it has to be in water. Thank YOU for your patience with ME and let me read up a little more first. I could be wrong about this.

[phiver4]

Yes, that is how it sounded to me. And also, I agree that being filled with the Holy Spirit comes as a result of accepting Jesus as your Savior. However, from the evidence that I have found in Scripture, which a lot of the verses are provided in the link (above) Judah provided, I would hold firm to my belief that confessing to God that I am a sinner and believing in Jesus and asking Him for forgivness of my sins and to come into my life as Lord and Savior will allow me to be born again.
Maybe I am not using the term "baptized" correctly when I say that I am baptized by the Holy Spirit after confessing my sins to God and believing in and accepting Jesus as my Savior, maybe I should just consider it as being "filled" with the Spirit. I think God knows what I meant.

I know that there will be many different views on this, as Judah pointed out, and I truly respect each and every one of them. But for me, Scripture keeps leading me back to the verses below. And I apologize Judah, I still haven't quite mastered the quote functions here so I hope you don't mind that I cut and pasted the relevant verses from your link. It was the fastest way for me:

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12 (NKJ)

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.John 1:12 (NKJ)

15). . .that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16)For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17)For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18)"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:15-18 (NKJ)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 3:36 (NKJ)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
John 5:24 (NKJ)

And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”
John 6:35 (NKJ)

. . . “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:40 (NKJ)

”Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”
John 6:47 (NKJ)

”Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 8:24 (NKJ)

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

. . . but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.John 20:31 (NKJ)

”To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."Acts 10:43 (NKJ)

[jenna]

One question: Should we not follow Jesus' example? In order to be properly baptized, it should be by water. It is a symbol of "rebirth", where we die and are "born again" into God's kingdom. In Matthew 4:13,16. "Then Jesus came from Galilee to John to the Jordan to be baptized by him." v16. "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately FROM THE WATER ..." Clearly here He had been fully submerged in His baptism. To me, I would want to follow the example He taught. Since this is the way He was baptised, should it not also be that way for us?

[jenna]

Ok, one other verse I found. John 3:5. "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born OF WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God". This plainly states that water is REQUIRED for a proper baptism.

[phiver4]

One question: Should we not follow Jesus' example? In order to be properly baptized, it should be by water. It is a symbol of "rebirth", where we die and are "born again" into God's kingdom. In Matthew 4:13,16. "Then Jesus came from Galilee to John to the Jordan to be baptized by him." v16. "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately FROM THE WATER ..." Clearly here He had been fully submerged in His baptism. To me, I would want to follow the example He taught. Since this is the way He was baptised, should it not also be that way for us?

From the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry:

"Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirement for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrafices to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrafice for our sin. (1Peter 2:24; 2Cor 5:21) in His role as priest.
To be consecrated as a priest He had to be:
1) Washed with water (Lev 8:6; Exodus 29:4; Matt 3:16)
2) Annointed with oil (Lev 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt 3:16)
Both of these were bestowed on Him at His baptism."

In Acts19, Paul told the disciples of John the Baptist who were baptized by John that they should believe in Christ and when they did, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:1-5).

Besides water baptisms, there is a baptism that does not include water. John the Baptist
said that God sent him to baptize with water and that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not perform a single water baptism.

1Corin 12:13- "for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."

[phiver4]

Ok, one other verse I found. John 3:5. "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born OF WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God". This plainly states that water is REQUIRED for a proper baptism.

Jenwat3,
sorry to have to cut and paste this instead of putting it into my own words but time is not going to permit me and I wanted to get back to you on this. The following is taken directly from the Link that was provided above from Judah.
I hope this helps. I will not be able to get to my computer until tomorrow. I look forward to talking to you soon!

1)There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2)This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3)Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4)Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5)Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6)That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7)Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again." 8)The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:1-8 (NKJ)

People taking the stance that baptism is necessary for salvation will say, "See, look here! This verse says that 'unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'" And I must agree that is does say that. But what does "born of water" mean? It this phrase referring to water baptism? Upon first glance, it may seem so, but let's take a closer look at the surrounding context. Read the entire passage again, starting from verse 1. Nicodemus is asking Jesus how he can possibly enter his mother's womb again and be re-born. So he's talking about physical birth. He can't understand the concept of physically being re-born. Obviously that's an impossibility. But Jesus isn't talking about physical rebirth, He's talking about spiritual rebirth. Look at what He says in verses 5 and 6. I'll repeat it.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
John 3:5,6 (NKJ)

You see? So "born of water" in this context very clearly means "physically born" not "baptized." Let me re-phrase it.

"I'm telling you that unless you're physically born and then spiritually reborn, you can't enter into heaven. If you're physically born, you're just a lost human. If you're spiritually reborn, you've entered into a relationship with Jesus Christ." (Eric's version)

[jenna]

Right. Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL rebirth, not physical. Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus was talking about, so he was talking about a physical rebirth. Once you are spiritually reborn, you are able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But in order to be spiritually reborn, you have to be baptised with water. Again, "unless one is born of WATER and Spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven". Clearly here Christ is talking about a SPIRITUAL rebirth, not a physical one.

[Swamper]

Right. Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL rebirth, not physical. Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus was talking about, so he was talking about a physical rebirth. Once you are spiritually reborn, you are able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But in order to be spiritually reborn, you have to be baptised with water. Again, "unless one is born of WATER and Spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven". Clearly here Christ is talking about a SPIRITUAL rebirth, not a physical one.

It's been argued that the "water" here is referring to amniotic fluid...you know, like when a woman's "water breaks" when she's about to give birth? Thus "born of water" could refer to the original physical birth, not baptism.

[jenna]

I may be able to see where people can get this view. However, Jesus wasn't talking about this. In order to be "reborn" you need to be baptised with water. Only then can you receive the Holy Spirit. John himself understood this. The only way he ever baptised anyone, even Christ, was with water. Surely if this wasn't the right way or wasn't required it would have been mentioned somewhere.

[phiver4]

I may be able to see where people can get this view. However, Jesus wasn't talking about this. In order to be "reborn" you need to be baptised with water. Only then can you receive the Holy Spirit. John himself understood this. The only way he ever baptised anyone, even Christ, was with water. Surely if this wasn't the right way or wasn't required it would have been mentioned somewhere.

Jenwat:
Quotes:

"Why would Paul leave 99% of his converts half-saved, or, according to some, not saved at all? If baptism were a requirement for salvation, then the majority of people Paul preached to never entered the kingdom of heaven, because, as Paul says himself, he only baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanus. Paul, in his zealousnous for preaching the gospel, and in his obsession for detail, would not leave so many people unsaved."

Also, Jesus never baptized anyone.

" What would happen if I were on the battlefield and I accepted Jesus and then was shot through the heart before I was baptized? As Scripture so plainly states, I would be saved, just as the people were in Acts 10 who received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before they were baptized, and just as the thief on the cross was before he died (he was never baptized)."

Personally, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior long ago and in prayer with my Pastor and after which I immediately began a discipleship program offered through our Church. It wasn't until 2 months later that our Church went down to the beach and I was baptized in the ocean. So what you are telling me is that I (along with the others that also gave their lives to Christ) would have gone to hell had I died before our Church made their quarterly trip to the beach for all those who recently gave their lives to Christ and to publicly affirm this by the symbolic water Baptism in front of our congregation?

I feel that I have provided plenty of Scripture and references to back up my own personal view. If I have not, then please let me know and I will do my absolute best to find more. But from your responses above,

Regardless, as I stated when I started this thread, I respect everyone's view on this subject because I know they will vary. This is my own view based on what I researched.