Evidence for God from Science

I came across a website, http://www.near-death.com/evidence , that claims scientific evidence for survival of consciousness after death. I know this is nothing new but I could not find this issue addressed here or maybe I did not look hard enough. The site makes the claim that Paul describes this type of experience in 2Corin 12:2-4, although I believe they took it out of text.

Can someone please share with me their views on this subject? My view is that it (the experience) does not exist. Thank you.

Well,

we already know from the Bible that consciousness continues after death...no news there.

As for near death experiences, they are real. They happen. My wife is a nurse and a friend of mine is an anesthesiologist. Both could tell you stories about near death patients.

I see this as something like the occult: it is there and it is real, but a Christian is to focus on Christ. Focusing on the paranormal may be just a little too close to idolatry...

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Well,

we already know from the Bible that consciousness continues after death...no news there.

As for near death experiences, they are real. They happen. My wife is a nurse and a friend of mine is an anesthesiologist. Both could tell you stories about near death patients.

I see this as something like the occult: it is there and it is real, but a Christian is to focus on Christ. Focusing on the paranormal may be just a little too close to idolatry...

FL

Thank you for your response. However, I would not say I am "focusing", rather asking a simple question.

phiver4,

I too know a number of people that have had these near death or out of body experiences, including my own grandfather who once witnessed the tunnel of light after he was hit by a car. Another friend of mine, while having a heart attack, actually saw the paramedics administering cpr on his body while he was outside of it... These are somewhat strange experiences, but then again this is California...

I also see alot of this John Edward medium guy on the WE channel talk with the dead... Is it true? Who knows... Biblically speaking, however, it is forbidden for Christians to speak with the dead, called "necromancy" (Deuteronomy 18:11). The punishment for contacting the dead is very severe, if not repented of...

Is this what you are asking? In hindsight, some of these near death or out of body experiences perhaps proves that we are spiritual beings, IMO, although we need to be careful in dabbling in the black arts which may actually be (at times) possibly true spiritual incidents...

Also if necromancy is forbidden in the Bible, that would also insinuate that the dead are possibly around perhaps...

Gman wrote:phiver4,

I too know a number of people that have had these near death or out of body experiences, including my own grandfather who once witnessed the tunnel of light after he was hit by a car. Another friend of mine, while having a heart attack, actually saw the paramedics administering cpr on his body while he was outside of it... These are somewhat strange experiences, but then again this is California...

I also see alot of this John Edward medium guy on the WE channel talk with the dead... Is it true? Who knows... Biblically speaking, however, it is forbidden for Christians to speak with the dead, called "necromancy" (Deuteronomy 18:11). The punishment for contacting the dead is very severe, if not repented of...

Is this what you are asking? In hindsight, some of these near death or out of body experiences perhaps proves that we are spiritual beings, IMO, although we need to be careful in dabbling in the black arts which may actually be (at times) possibly true spiritual incidents...

Also if necromancy is forbidden in the Bible, that would also insinuate that the dead are possibly around perhaps...

There are some instances in Scripture where it appears communication takes place with those who have previously died, or their presence is noted (the mount of transfiguration for example.)

I think more often than not, what is represented in this realm in popular culture is simply deception on the part on the medium. Where it is more than that, I think we need to remember that there is a spiritual realm where a significant portion of it is given to deception.

phiver4 wrote:I came across a website, http://www.near-death.com/evidence , that claims scientific evidence for survival of consciousness after death. I know this is nothing new but I could not find this issue addressed here or maybe I did not look hard enough. The site makes the claim that Paul describes this type of experience in 2 Corin 12:2-4, although I believe they took it out of text. Can someone please share with me their views on this subject? My view is that it (the experience) does not exist. Thank you.

Well, I am one of them that had one. I was a devout atheist at the time and it converted me to Christ. What I saw and experienced — to hard to explain in 10 words or less. Let's say, I did see people being deceived into thinking they had entered a paradise but in due course the true reality of where they really were hit them.

Now with the advent of modern medical resuscitation techniques more NDE are being recorded but these individuals do not stay long enough to discern where they were really are at. It is afterward, when a person comes back you need to discern — do they speak of Jesus Christ that the word of God speaks of and I mean the real Jesus Christ and not some new age looking hippie in a robe singing all you need is 'Love-Love-Love-Love is all you need.'

“You need Christ…Christ…Christ…Christ is whom you need.” That is the true test - what message is being brought back. My hypotheses is that God test the heart and these could be for that purpose: testing who will know Jesus fully and who will reject fully.

I do speak from experience and you have the right to believe me or not but many NDE survivors see an angel of light so willing to deceive that these survivors believe they saw something else — friends, lost loved one(s), God, etc, their long lost pet, etc…

I always question what type of love did they sensed and felt — this is a give-away. God's love is not sugary and all sticky new age politcally correct sweet. It is powerful — revealing justice, righteousness, grace, firmness, judgment, etc and etc, all of God's character and nature in balance... It is humbling to have every part of you exposed and proved to you how wretched you are by the standards of such love - human words cannot explain it in full detail. Then to realize that his allowing me to come back into this world was an act of his profound grace I did not deserve…Hmmm tears are welling in my eyes… I have to stop…

God bless!
-
-
-

Great post B.W.

Thanks for sharing that B.W.... I've heard that from others as well that after they had a NDE it totally changed their lives or perspectives... It was like a real event and not a dream.

Very interesting these NDEs. Never thought they occur quite so often. the thing is - can we know for sure? Once i dreamed about going to heaven and then woke up... just a dream then...
And what is it/when it occurs? When the brain is alive? What about coma? Is this somewhere between death and coma? Or is it "resurrection"? Did their hearts beat while in this state, and were their brains alive? Why not everybody goes through this, and then returns back to life?

Must've been interesting to go through this yourself, B.W.... May i ask - did you know you have it right away or only once you awoke? And did it feel certain, or rather uncertain and was it pleasurable or rather sad, kind of as if going to hell? I know such things are hard to describe unless one really goes through them, but... I would really appreciate if you could... and i think others would as well...

And what are dreams? Result of our brains working, but... then again is some "reality" in them? Do we have free will in dreams? I've always been told that no, but over the past months or so i may have come to realize this is not true; dream is somewhat distorted but we still feel we're ourselves, live, that it is the reality and we have free will and that what we do in the dream is our choice. It may be that sometimes we experience or do stuff we want to, or dare, or somehow desire, but feel either ashamed or embarrassed or scared to do them. Going to places where we want to, meeting people we want to, doing things we want but dont dare, etc etc - arent these all in our dreams? yet during them we feel we act as in reality, as we had a choice and what we do is ultimately up to us...
anywya.. that was off topic but had many weird dreams today and so thought it would come up in this quite nicely

And as for the speaking with dead and stuff - what about saints? Arent we to pray to them? Now we know they are alive - souls, but bodies are dead. Now what does talking to dead mean? If their soul lives... apparently some people do it, including William Blake, famous english poet and he was also a very strong believer i think - hated organized religion but was very spiritual and i think it said that he talked to his mother or someone and saw angels etc...

madscientist wrote:….And what is it/when it occurs? When the brain is alive? What about coma? Is this somewhere between death and coma? Or is it "resurrection"? Did their hearts beat while in this state, and were their brains alive? Why not everybody goes through this, and then returns back to life?

Must've been interesting to go through this yourself, B.W.... May i ask - did you know you have it right away or only once you awoke? And did it feel certain, or rather uncertain and was it pleasurable or rather sad, kind of as if going to hell? I know such things are hard to describe unless one really goes through them, but... I would really appreciate if you could... and i think others would as well...

Let's see, how to explain it in manner easy to describe. I am near sighted and need eye glasses to see. With my specks, I cannot see clearly no more than 3 to 4 inches from my eye —the rest is a blurr. I knew I died when I first realized I was not breathing and could see pristine clearly without need of eyewear. My hearing was extremely acute and I could see my body away from me. The rest was a journey to a real place and back again. I was taken to a hospital where I suddenly grabbed a poor doctor by his white jacket lapels asking him if I was alive or not and where am I as well as making sure this was not where I had been.”

They could not draw blood at first because according to a nurse speaking to the doctor I overheard ' it was still pasty.' The shot me up full of IV's and pain meds. I was terrified to close my eyes. It was estimated that I had been dead for some time due to the condition of my blood and that something had happened as I was not supposed to be alive. From the moment of death till the time I returned and furthered revived in the Hospital — well, it was no dream. I let people come to there own conclusions as what happened it does not bother me if one believes or not. I know it did. One other thing, during the experience, I was confronted with things and realities, I had knowledge of beforehand. The entire event was cognitive and unlike a dream.

madscientist wrote:…And as for the speaking with dead and stuff - what about saints? Arent we to pray to them? Now we know they are alive - souls, but bodies are dead. Now what does talking to dead mean? If their soul lives... apparently some people do it, including William Blake, famous english poet and he was also a very strong believer i think - hated organized religion but was very spiritual and i think it said that he talked to his mother or someone and saw angels etc...

Maybe a Roman Catholic can answer better than I can. The RC's I know of do not talk with saints or pray to them as the movies make out. I heard many RC priests say the opposite — You pray to Jesus to make you like Saint Joseph and have the same carpentry knowledge as he and not to St Joe himself. Any RC's verify this?

As for talking with the dead — it is possible and never forget that the bible forbids this practice due to the nature of the evil one deception. Stay away from this practice and those that do. You have to encounter the forces of darkness and see them work their lies of noble deception to beguile entrapping a soul to fully grasp that the bible is correct: Do not do this.
-
-
-

B. W. wrote: I let people come to there own conclusions as what happened it does not bother me if one believes or not. I know it did. One other thing, during the experience, I was confronted with things and realities, I had knowledge of beforehand. The entire event was cognitive and unlike a dream.

This is exactly what my friend at work said to me too... He said it wasn't a dream. And I believe him too. This guy was also a very conservative person. Not a drug using laid back kind of guy... He certainly got my attention.

This may seem a bit strange, but recently as of last week I started watching this guy "Allan Rich" on You Tube. I thought his testimony on the internet was interesting, at least his coming to Christ through NDE... Perhaps like B.W..

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?v ... d302bfd2a5

or

http://web.mac.com/preacherallanrich/Pr ... imony.html

I was going to post on NDE last week, but didn't know how it was going to be received so I didn't post. Strangely enough, phiver4 posted on NDE's on the 24th... Whatever...

B. W. wrote: As for talking with the dead — it is possible and never forget that the bible forbids this practice due to the nature of the evil one deception. Stay away from this practice and those that do. You have to encounter the forces of darkness and see them work their lies of noble deception to beguile entrapping a soul to fully grasp that the bible is correct: Do not do this.

Good point. On top of that, though interesting, I don't think we should necessarily hang our faith on near death experiences... It's only through Jesus Christ that we are saved.

Gman wrote:

B. W. wrote: As for talking with the dead — it is possible and never forget that the bible forbids this practice due to the nature of the evil one deception. Stay away from this practice and those that do. You have to encounter the forces of darkness and see them work their lies of noble deception to beguile entrapping a soul to fully grasp that the bible is correct: Do not do this.

Good point. On top of that, though interesting, I don't think we should necessarily hang our faith on near death experiences... It's only through Jesus Christ that we are saved...

Yes and that is a correct statement - it is not the ND-expereince one has that is important. We should not base our faith on NDE but rather in Christ which is the most important point of the matter.
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:Maybe a Roman Catholic can answer better than I can. The RC's I know of do not talk with saints or pray to them as the movies make out. I heard many RC priests say the opposite — You pray to Jesus to make you like Saint Joseph and have the same carpentry knowledge as he and not to St Joe himself. Any RC's verify this?

You are correct: the Roman Catholic Church does not condone prayer to saints. Jesus is the sole intercessor before God:

...(Jesus) is the sole intercessor before God for all men, sinners especially. He can definitively save those who humble themselves before God, being always ready to intercede in their favor. (Heb 7:25) The Holy Spirit Himself intercedes for us and His intercession for the saints conforms to the will of God. (Rom 8:26-27) -article 2634, Cathechism of the Catholic Church, Second Ecumenical Vatican Council, 1962

FL

^

Thank you very much B.W. for sharing your experience, yours is the first I have heard described in that way, to be in God's completely pure presence. That definatley moved me.

I had no idea I would get so many responses from my initial post and I too hesitated because I was not sure of the feedback.

I would absolutley question those that claim to talk to the dead and claim to be "mediums." I don't how one would communicate with a person ( or how God would allow it) who is in Heaven and with God. My feeling is they are in contact with the great deceiver himself or one of his demons. I posted on another thread in response to someone's question about ghosts and spirits and I directed them to the 2 links below:
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/p ... 1005W2.htm
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/p ... 1005W3.htm

But getting back to the NDE. Does anyone have a comment on 2Corn 12:2-4? Is this a reference from the New Testament about NDE?

Thank you again for all your valuable input.