Evidence for God from Science

I have been in a debate on another board on Lucifer? While I do not want to debate here, who exactly is Lucifer? My take is that he was a fallen angel who became Satan. Yet some others seem to think he was a human king of tyre. Any thoughts?

I don't know if this will be of help...but in my Catholic Bible - in French - the name Lucifer is there, in Isaiah 14:12 and in Ezekiel 28:2 & 28:11.

My understanding is that "Lucifer" is Latin for "Lightbearer" and was Satan's name before the fall...but I have no biblical evidence to back this up. (Also, I last studied Latin in the Jurassic era...)

The historic Lucifer your other posters are talking about is probably Lucifer Calaritanus, a bishop of Sardinia, a contemporary of Augustine. A mean SOB, Bishop Lucifer may have given his name to the Devil...

FL

Okay....

since my post above, I've done a little research on the historical Lucifer whom I've already identified as Bishop Lucifer Calaritanus.

He wasn't the SOB I lead you to believe above. He was actually a "fierce opponent of the heresy known as Arianism" which held that Jesus was neither fully God, nor fully human...somewhat like the Christadelphians today.

Bishop Lucifer was a troublemaker in the same way that Luther was: he sought to upset the direction in which the church was headed. He wrote tracts against the Roman emperor, was banished to the far reaches of the Empire and lived for a while in Antioch.

With apologies,

FL

Hi Jenna,

I'll go back to the Hebrew to show you what Lucifer's name means:

Strongs 1966

1966
heylel
hay-lale'
from 'halal' (1984) (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.

In Ezekiel 28 Lucifer is "allegorically" called the king of Tyre, a false king compared to the true King, Christ. Christians believe Christ is their Rock. But Tyre or Tyrus, means rock.

6865
Tsor
tsore
or Tsowr {tsore}; the same as 'tsor' (6864); a rock; Tsor, a place in Palestine:--Tyre, Tyrus.

It says in Ezekiel 28 that the "king of tyre" was in Eden the garden of God. But we know that can't be the king of Tyre. The only one's who were in Eden, were God, Adam and Eve and the serpent. therefore, this lamentation to the king of Tyre must be aimed directly towards the serpent.

Eze 28:13, Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (KJV)

This is the word serpent as utilized in Gen 3:

5175
nachash
naw-khawsh'
from 'nachash' (5172); a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.

5172
nachash
naw-khash'
a primitive root; properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

And who is the serpent? Originally, Lucifer was a cherub; one of those gargoyle looking creatures, simliar to the descrriptions used of the cherubs guarding the ark of the covenant.

Eze 28:14, Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

That word "covereth" is this word:

5526
cakak
saw-kak'
or sakak (Exod. 33:22) {saw-kak'}; a primitive root; properly, to entwine as a screen; by implication, to fence in, cover over, (figuratively) protect:--cover, defence, defend, hedge in, join together, set, shut up.

Lucifer evidently protected the mercy seat of God in that place and at that time.

Rev 12:9, And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He wanted to be God.

Isa 14:13, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

And he wanted Jesus to worship him:

Matt 4:9, And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Whether Lucifer was an angel is not stipulated. He was definitely a cherub. However, it claims he disguises himself as an angel

2Cor 11:14, And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

That word "transformed" is this Greek word:

3345
metaschmatizw
metaschematizo
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
from meta - meta 3326 and a derivative of schma - schema 4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation):--transfer, transform (self).

Hope that helps.

Ron.

It's probably worth noting as well that Angel has some connotations in the English that maybe more than what the greek reader, at least in the New Testament, understood. Angel is just a transliteration of the greek word angelos which means "messenger." It's used of people as well when they are in the capacity of a messenger. It doesn't alway necessarily mean a heavenly or celestial being.

Thank you, Katabole! It does help. I wish the others understood this!

I have been in a debate on another board on Lucifer? While I do not want to debate here, who exactly is Lucifer? My take is that he was a fallen angel who became Satan. Yet some others seem to think he was a human king of tyre. Any thoughts?

I say both. There is no reason to think that a description of a literal King of Tyre can not also be used to describe Lucifer himself.

I guess my main question would be is he a human, or a fallen angel?

jenna wrote:I guess my main question would be is he a human, or a fallen angel?

Fallen Angel or Cherub. Not Human. The reference to the King of Tyre is often taken as prophetic in nature with an immediate application to the Human person in Human History but also a further prophetic application which is reflective of Satan in a greater context. It's not always clear how to understand it. However, the Bible itself in the New Testament often uses Old Testament passages in that manner and so it's an established method but obviously when the Bible itself doesn't do it, it behooves us to be careful in how we attempt to do it ourselves. Humility and a willingness to be wrong is always a good thing when approaching prophecy, especially if we want to avoid errors and presumption.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

jenna wrote:I guess my main question would be is he a human, or a fallen angel?

Fallen Angel or Cherub. Not Human. The reference to the King of Tyre is often taken as prophetic in nature with an immediate application to the Human person in Human History but also a further prophetic application which is reflective of Satan in a greater context. It's not always clear how to understand it. However, the Bible itself in the New Testament often uses Old Testament passages in that manner and so it's an established method but obviously when the Bible itself doesn't do it, it behooves us to be careful in how we attempt to do it ourselves. Humility and a willingness to be wrong is always a good thing when approaching prophecy, especially if we want to avoid errors and presumption.

Amen!