Evidence for God from Science

Hey everyone, there's something I've been mulling over for the past few weeks. A few weeks ago I was reading stuff online when I randomly stumbled across Wikipedia's pages on Judaism. I perused them and, I admit, when I got to the pages dealing with Judaism's views on Christ/Christianity I got a bit of a jolt.

Let me explain - obviously I knew that Jews don't believe that Christ is the Messiah, it's just that I never really knew the exact details of *why*. Basically, it seems that their very idea of the concept of 'Messiah' is 180 degrees different than Christianity's (i.e., if I recall correctly, he's not even really supposed to be divine?). I even saw something that suggested that the verses Christians believe are prophesies dealing w/Christ were, according to them, basically found from something called 'proof texting' and that the prophesies that *do* reference Christ describe him as a false teacher. I did a bit more reading online and found that, to them, Christianity is essentially seen as idolatrous and polytheistic (due to the belief in the Trinity), and that some doctrines that Christianity holds to (like original sin) are basically not there; in fact, what I found is that salvation (as we know & describe it as Christians) seems to be fairly unimportant, with instead an emphasis placed on following the 613 (I think that's how many there are) laws. Basically, what I'm feeling is that the impression I've had is that Christianity is a sort of continuation of Judaism, when the info I've found seems to state something else entirely...

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent and rambling...I'm thinking that I'm obviously not the only Christian ever to notice the differences between Christianity and Judaism and go "huh...", so I figured that I'd come here and get some info from those more knowledgeble than me. I guess, referring to the thread title, *are* Christianity and Judaism incompatible to the point of basically being mutually exclusive? Please note that I am NOT 'throwing in the towel' so to speak and rejecting my faith or anything - I'm very new to this, so I'm looking to be informed. I'm wondering how others who have learned of these differences have reconciled them. Apparently there's a series of books that are called something like 'Answering Jewish Objections to Christianity' (not 100% this is right) by an individual (I think his name's Michael Brown?) who was Jewish but became Christian...I would *love* to get my hands on these one day. Is anyone familiar with these books? Thanks in advance for any reply!

Prisca712 wrote:Let me explain - obviously I knew that Jews don't believe that Christ is the Messiah, it's just that I never really knew the exact details of *why*. Basically, it seems that their very idea of the concept of 'Messiah' is 180 degrees different than Christianity's (i.e., if I recall correctly, he's not even really supposed to be divine?).

Let's be clear that Christianity was a Jewish sect, so to say that Jews don't believe that Christ is the Messiah would seem to be true of contemporary Jews. It seems many Jews today are in fact coming to believe that Christ is the Messiah and even a fulfillment of their Jewishness. See Jews for Jesus for example (I believe you would find many answers you are looking for on that website).

Certainly, what you observe of their expected Messiah not being at all like Christ I believe is true. This is actually one line of argument put forward by Christian apologists defending the resurrection of Christ. To quote:

There was probably difficulty and danger involved in the propagation of a new religion. With regard to the Jews, the notion of Jesus' being the Messiah was contrary to Jewish hopes and expectations; Christianity lowered the esteem of Jewish law; and the disciples would have had to reproach the Jewish leaders as guilty of an execution that could only be represented as an unjust and cruel murder. As to the Romans, they could have understood the kingdom of God only in terms of an earthly kingdom-thus, a rival.

http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp? ... ction.html

Or more evidentially in the following...

Fact #4: The original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every predisposition to the contrary.

Think of the situation the disciples faced following Jesus' crucifixion:

1. Their leader was dead. And Jewish Messianic expectations had no idea of a Messiah who, instead of triumphing over Israel's enemies, would be shamefully executed by them as a criminal.

2. Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone's rising from the dead to glory and immortality before the general resurrection of the dead at the end of the world.

Nevertheless, the original disciples suddenly came to believe so strongly that God had raised Jesus from the dead that they were willing to die for the truth of that belief. But then the obvious question arises: What in the world caused them to believe such an un-Jewish and outlandish thing? Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University, muses, “Some sort of powerful, transformative experience is required to generate the sort of movement earliest Christianity was.” And N. T. Wright, an eminent British scholar, concludes, “That is why, as an historian, I cannot explain the rise of early Christianity unless Jesus rose again, leaving an empty tomb behind him.”

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/cr ... script.pdf

Prisca712 wrote: Basically, what I'm feeling is that the impression I've had is that Christianity is a sort of continuation of Judaism, when the info I've found seems to state something else entirely...

I think sometimes people look at it that way because of the our words 'Old Testament - New Testament'. The Jewish scripture is much like what we call the Old Testament, but they call their scripture the 'Torah'. It focuses mainly on the first 5 books of what we call the Old Testament. The have a different break up of those books and follow it with the 'Tanakh'. We see where everything in the Old Testament leads to Jesus, the Messiah. They do not.

I've had Jewish people tell me they thought Jesus was just a great teacher. This always bugged me. Either Jesus was who He said He was ....or He was a complete maniac. There is no real middle ground. Therefore, without any middle ground....you are correct....they are theologically incompatible.

The good part is....their history as God's people isn't over yet.

Thanks so much for the replies guys! I apologize for not responding - the school year's winding down & it's definitely crunch time (of course me being the geek I am I've decided to make a costume for an upcoming medieval art history presentation...). Thanks for the links Kurieuo, I'll definitely check them out when I'm not juggling books in one hand and a sewing machine in the other But the quote you posted (Fact #4) is definitely food for thought for me. And I totally agree JesusSmiles - if you read the Gospels in their entirety it pretty much rules out that middle ground. Then again, I've heard the rationalization be something to the effect that Jesus was merely coming to spread a good message, and all the 'divine stuff' was added later...I think this may come from ignorance aboout how the canon came about (I've actually heard offhand comments stated as fact saying things like the *entire* NT being written like 200-300 years after Christ's crucifixion & resurrection )

You certainly have your hands full Prisca712 ! Are you making a female or male costume? I made a simple one for my daughter a few years ago, but I lazed out and used 'stitch witchery'. It worked great until the first wash.

Like I said, I've heard the same thing about Jesus just being a good teacher. That is a real cop out. Either He was EXACTLY who He said He was, based on the words of His own mouth, or He was a total fraud. There is no middle ground on that one either!

JesusSmiles - Yeah, it's getting to be crunch time (only 3 more weeks of school!!)

re: the costume - here's the thing...it was a female costume, but the character in the project was male (a prince)...because I didn't want to wear a male costume (not as much fun, lol) I decided that he was a cross-dresser so that I could have an excuse to make a female costume...so technically I was simultaneously in drag and not in drag My prof cracked up so much!

Kurieuo - I've checked out a bit of the Jews for Jesus - WOW, so much info (the forums are quite fascinating)...it's a lot to process, and it really opened my eyes - there is so much...*context* that I've never really known about w/respect to the NT. It's funny how a lot of my initial 'freakouts' (i.e. discovery of perceived difficulties in the scriptures) have ended up being monumental learning experiences. Plus I think that today couldn't be more perfect for reading up on this

Prisca712 wrote:Sorry if this is a bit incoherent and rambling...I'm thinking that I'm obviously not the only Christian ever to notice the differences between Christianity and Judaism and go "huh...", so I figured that I'd come here and get some info from those more knowledgeble than me. I guess, referring to the thread title, *are* Christianity and Judaism incompatible to the point of basically being mutually exclusive? Please note that I am NOT 'throwing in the towel' so to speak and rejecting my faith or anything - I'm very new to this, so I'm looking to be informed. I'm wondering how others who have learned of these differences have reconciled them. Apparently there's a series of books that are called something like 'Answering Jewish Objections to Christianity' (not 100% this is right) by an individual (I think his name's Michael Brown?) who was Jewish but became Christian...I would *love* to get my hands on these one day. Is anyone familiar with these books? Thanks in advance for any reply!

I think it is an excellent question... My beliefs are that Judaism and Christianity are actually the same in the sense that they put love as their centerpiece of true faith. This is evident when Jesus commended a certain lawyer for his correct interpretation of the Torah. As you notice Jesus stated to him, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

Luke 10:26-28

26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Hi Prisca.

If Jesus didn't have the confidence in who he really was, (The Son of God) and he had no real belief in His own destiny, in my minds eye He couldn't have been anything other than a stark raving mad, suicidal lunatic, with a gluttony for punishment. All of his deciples would had to have been equally insane.

Had that been the case, secular historians would have recorded it as such-or there would have been no record- given the impact He created during the latter part of His life.

I've read articles against the resurrection, Jesus, and Christianity in general-not to mention the fluff one could get from television-and most claims couldn't hold a drop of water.

Just my .02.

btw; glad you posted your concerns here as from the above posts, I think you have been well advised.