Evidence for God from Science

John 10: 22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Questions:

Why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6?

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

Was Jesus denying His deity?

What was His point?

Thank you.

Christian2 wrote: John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? …

Questions: Why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Was Jesus denying His deity? What was His point? Thank you.

Hi Christian2

Here is a little background on what others say about this matter:

Alfred Barnes Writes on this verse:

"I said - The Psalmist said, or God said by the Psalmist. 'Ye are gods' - This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office, and it shows that the Hebrew word translated “god,” אלהים ̀elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exo_7:1; Exo_4:16."

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary states simply:

John 10:34-36 - Is it not written in your law — in Psa_82:6, respecting judges or magistrates.
Ye are gods — being the official representatives and commissioned agents of God.

From these quotes - Now note the context of the Palms Jesus quoted from:

Psalms 82:1-8, “A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." 5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!” ESV

In Exodus 18: 25-26 Moses set up judges to govern the children of Israel. These Judges were to govern as God would — taking care of the people. Exodus 22:9 speaks of these judges as ruling like God to settle matters justly, rightly, fairly, in concord with God's character and nature. These were to be representatives of the Lord to govern as He would.

In Exodus 7:1, Moses was to be God's representative to Pharaoh proving that Pharaoh was no deity. Pharaoh would grow jealous over any rival he thought was a god. Pharaoh thought only he, himself (Pharaoh), was god. This jealously of Pharaoh would cause Pharaoh to try to destroy any other rival he thought could usurp him — which in this case was Moses. This he did and perished in the process.

Now we come to Jesus statement in John 10 after coming to the Temple. What did Jesus find? He found the leaders of the people not being God's representatives governing as the Lord would. What Jesus found is amply conveyed in Psalms 82:1-8. The leaders were not governing as the Lord would.

Then here comes Jesus and Jesus states that his miracles and compassion proves who governs correctly: judging justly and showing no partiality to the wicked. Giving justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintaining the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescuing the weak and the needy and delivering them from the hand of the wicked so that none can snatch these from his hand. This was the central theme of the true Messiah's role and Jesus' acts and miracles backed him up.

The message was made clear by Jesus: such salvation and governship comes through the Messiah and the true Messiah is none over than God incarnate in human flesh as it is written:

Isaiah 45:21, “Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.”

The theme becomes more clear when Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6-8 and now note the context: “I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!” ESV

Look at verse 8- “Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!” ESV

Will not Jesus fulfill this? The religious leaders and rulers of Jesus' time failed to govern as God's representatives. This spelled their doom and 70 AD many of these same folk died.

Now note the change in the priesthood — which is now us.

1 Peter 2:9-12, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. 12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.” ESV

We are to walk as he — shining Godly love as he did - governing our lives by it and living it in our local assemblies.

1 John 2:6, “whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” ESV

Let us not fail in this endeavor. He did give us his Holy Spirit as a deposit for this task.

Now re-read John 10: 22-37 again: “Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.” NIV

Now do you understand?

For those wise reading this please note that Moses escaped from Pharaoh's grasp - do you see the correlation?
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B. W. wrote:

Christian2 wrote: John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? …

Questions: Why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Was Jesus denying His deity? What was His point? Thank you.

Hi Christian2

Here is a little background on what others say about this matter:

Alfred Barnes Writes on this verse:

"I said - The Psalmist said, or God said by the Psalmist. 'Ye are gods' - This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office, and it shows that the Hebrew word translated “god,” אלהים ̀elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exo_7:1; Exo_4:16."

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary states simply:

John 10:34-36 - Is it not written in your law — in Psa_82:6, respecting judges or magistrates.
Ye are gods — being the official representatives and commissioned agents of God.

From these quotes - Now note the context of the Palms Jesus quoted from:

Psalms 82:1-8, “A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." 5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!” ESV

In Exodus 18: 25-26 Moses set up judges to govern the children of Israel. These Judges were to govern as God would — taking care of the people. Exodus 22:9 speaks of these judges as ruling like God to settle matters justly, rightly, fairly, in concord with God's character and nature. These were to be representatives of the Lord to govern as He would.

In Exodus 7:1, Moses was to be God's representative to Pharaoh proving that Pharaoh was no deity. Pharaoh would grow jealous over any rival he thought was a god. Pharaoh thought only he, himself (Pharaoh), was god. This jealously of Pharaoh would cause Pharaoh to try to destroy any other rival he thought could usurp him — which in this case was Moses. This he did and perished in the process.

Now we come to Jesus statement in John 10 after coming to the Temple. What did Jesus find? He found the leaders of the people not being God's representatives governing as the Lord would. What Jesus found is amply conveyed in Psalms 82:1-8. The leaders were not governing as the Lord would.

Then here comes Jesus and Jesus states that his miracles and compassion proves who governs correctly: judging justly and showing no partiality to the wicked. Giving justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintaining the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescuing the weak and the needy and delivering them from the hand of the wicked so that none can snatch these from his hand. This was the central theme of the true Messiah's role and Jesus' acts and miracles backed him up.

The message was made clear by Jesus: such salvation and governship comes through the Messiah and the true Messiah is none over than God incarnate in human flesh as it is written:

Isaiah 45:21, “Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.”

The theme becomes more clear when Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6-8 and now note the context: “I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!” ESV

Look at verse 8- “Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!” ESV

Will not Jesus fulfill this? The religious leaders and rulers of Jesus' time failed to govern as God's representatives. This spelled their doom and 70 AD many of these same folk died.

Now note the change in the priesthood — which is now us.

1 Peter 2:9-12, “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. 12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.” ESV

We are to walk as he — shining Godly love as he did - governing our lives by it and living it in our local assemblies.

1 John 2:6, “whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” ESV

Let us not fail in this endeavor. He did give us his Holy Spirit as a deposit for this task.

Now re-read John 10: 22-37 again: “Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.” NIV

Now do you understand?

For those wise reading this please note that Moses escaped from Pharaoh's grasp - do you see the correlation?
-
-
-

This is a great response. Thank you for taking the time to put it together for me.

I have another question about verse 33.

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Some object to the translation above and say:

1. The definite article is missing here. It is missing for the word "anthropos" AND for the word "theos." Hence, one must consistently translate both of them.

To be grammatically consistent, if we say, "You being A man," then you must consistently translated "make yourself A god."

I don't know Greek. I want to know if the objection is correct.

Thank you.

It's a legitimate point to consider but not a clincher.

Context is the greater indicator than demanding an artificial grammatical uniformity for it's own sake.

Christian2 wrote:...This is a great response. Thank you for taking the time to put it together for me. I have another question about verse 33.

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Some object to the translation above and say:

1. The definite article is missing here. It is missing for the word "anthropos" AND for the word "theos." Hence, one must consistently translate both of them.

To be grammatically consistent, if we say, "You being A man," then you must consistently translated "make yourself A god."

I don't know Greek. I want to know if the objection is correct.

Thank you.

Please note that the old Greek Language of the NT era is just as sloppy as any other language. Sometimes the article is not used in Greek, yet, in order to translated into another language you might need to add, or leave out, an article for clarity of context.

Look at these two translations of John 10:33:

(KJVA) - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(LITV) - The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.

You can leave out the article too:

(KJVA) - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being man, makest thyself God.

Leaving out the article does not subtract from the contextual meaning. Note: translating by adding an 'a' at the end of the sentence is not needed but even if added in, it still emphasizes the religious leaders tone as contemptuous and derogatory toward Jesus. This is conveyed in the Greek text very well with or without the English article added in.

(KJVA) - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being (a) man, makest thyself (a) God!

You can leave the English article out or leave it in as it conveys their contempt towards Jesus and their exultation of their own superiority to make life and death judgments basis on bias. The Religious Leaders were acting like little arrogant gods. Context of Pslams 82 and the rest of John 10 bear this out.

(LITV without 'a') - The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being man, make Yourself God…

Hope this helps
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Canuckster1127 wrote:It's a legitimate point to consider but not a clincher.

Context is the greater indicator than demanding an artificial grammatical uniformity for it's own sake.

This is what I believe too. Look at the context. This was not the first time the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be God. I believe the Jews understood Him very well. All you have to do is look at their reaction. Their reaction was to pick up stones to throw at Him. Picking up stones -- is the same in any language.

B. W. wrote:

Christian2 wrote:...This is a great response. Thank you for taking the time to put it together for me. I have another question about verse 33.

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Some object to the translation above and say:

1. The definite article is missing here. It is missing for the word "anthropos" AND for the word "theos." Hence, one must consistently translate both of them.

To be grammatically consistent, if we say, "You being A man," then you must consistently translated "make yourself A god."

I don't know Greek. I want to know if the objection is correct.

Thank you.

Please note that the old Greek Language of the NT era is just as sloppy as any other language. Sometimes the article is not used in Greek, yet, in order to translated into another language you might need to add, or leave out, an article for clarity of context.

Look at these two translations of John 10:33:

(KJVA) - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(LITV) - The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.

You can leave out the article too:

(KJVA) - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being man, makest thyself God.

Leaving out the article does not subtract from the contextual meaning. Note: translating by adding an 'a' at the end of the sentence is not needed but even if added in, it still emphasizes the religious leaders tone as contemptuous and derogatory toward Jesus. This is conveyed in the Greek text very well with or without the English article added in.

(KJVA) - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being (a) man, makest thyself (a) God!

You can leave the English article out or leave it in as it conveys their contempt towards Jesus and their exultation of their own superiority to make life and death judgments basis on bias. The Religious Leaders were acting like little arrogant gods. Context of Pslams 82 and the rest of John 10 bear this out.

(LITV without 'a') - The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being man, make Yourself God…

Hope this helps
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Yes, it helps. Thanks again.