Oldest known human fossil found in Europe

[Gman]

A piece of human jawbone unearthed in Spain could be up to 1.3 million years old.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23813443/

While fossilized remains of Homo erectus are 1.8 and 1.0 million years old are found in Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus

[Robert Byers]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

[Canuckster1127]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

[Robert Byers]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

[Canuckster1127]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

Do you have any links or ties to back up these claims of yours?

[Robert Byers]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

Do you have any links or ties to back up these claims of yours?

Links? Are you saying women don't have pain? or female animals have childbirth pain? Am i introducing to you new ideas?
You have my word. Why would I make it up. Does it make a difference ?
Committ to an opinion and make it worth while to prove my point.
This shouldn't be news to you or debatable.
Robert Byers

[Canuckster1127]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

Do you have any links or ties to back up these claims of yours?

Links? Are you saying women don't have pain? or female animals have childbirth pain? Am i introducing to you new ideas?
You have my word. Why would I make it up. Does it make a difference ?
Committ to an opinion and make it worth while to prove my point.
This shouldn't be news to you or debatable.
Robert Byers

It's very debatable and I asked you then what I'm asking you now for the second time, please demonstrate your claim for immediate skeletal change in women.

We can go into the other elements after if you wish. I think it's a pretty simple question. How about an answer with some evidence to back it up.

[zoegirl]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

I would echo Canuckster's request. Unless you have access to Eve before the fall and Eve after the fall, you really have no evidence, do you?

YOu have yet to address the specifics of your arguments and that is what we are asking (or at least what I am asking). Were women's hips larger? Were babies heads smaller? How do you know? Scripture does not address the specifics so HOW DO YOU KNOW? What allows you to make such an assertion when scripture gives no specifics?

Even accepting that there is an element of pain in childbirth that is due to the curse, is that pain necessarily physical? COuld not the pain in childbirth also indicate the brokenness of the family relationship?!?! WHat if this indicates emotional pain? Spiritual anguish?

BEsides which, there are, even in this cursed world, a huge variety of anatomical differences in women. SOme women have virtually no labor pains and have very short labors. One woman in my church was in the church service while her labor was progressing and she left in the middle of the service and within an hour delivered her baby. My mom had very short labors...

Obviously no one is debating that childbirth is painful. I would debate that assertion that no animal feels pain during birth. There are plenty of examples of breech delivery in livestock, fetal death, and twisted limbs in delivery that would hinder the delivery of the baby. WOuld this not be painful!?!??!? Simply because animals don;t scream in pain or vocalize does not eliminate the idea of pain.

[Himantolophus]

In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.

Did you ask these animals to see if they have pain?? Animals do not express pain like humans do. In childbirth, many animals just "grin and bear it" because there's no ability to curse and complain so why bother?

The difficulty of human childbirth is actually evidence of our evolutionary path. A tradeoff for standing upright is an awkward reproductive tract which leads to problems. I could ask you this: Why would God design humans in His image and make such an imperfect being? And believe me, human bodies are full of defects...

[Gman]

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

Bob,

Your premise is all wrong... In Genesis, God clearly stated that woman's pain would only increase in childbirth. Not begin after they sinned...

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

[Robert Byers]

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.[/quote]

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers[/quote]

Do you have any links or ties to back up these claims of yours?[/quote]

Links? Are you saying women don't have pain? or female animals have childbirth pain? Am i introducing to you new ideas?
You have my word. Why would I make it up. Does it make a difference ?
Committ to an opinion and make it worth while to prove my point.
This shouldn't be news to you or debatable.
Robert Byers[/quote]

It's very debatable and I asked you then what I'm asking you now for the second time, please demonstrate your claim for immediate skeletal change in women.

We can go into the other elements after if you wish. I think it's a pretty simple question. How about an answer with some evidence to back it up.[/quote]

Its not debatable. The evidence is that there is now skeleton alignment that is the cause of the pain. So since pain came at the fall therefore the skeleton.
Rob byers

[Robert Byers]

First things first. Is it human. Find a full skelton. A female. If it shows the female had pain or would giving birth, because of configuration of bone, then its human. These things are so un provable anything can be said.
Robert Byers

I don't understand your reasoning. A fossil find is not valid unless it is a full skeleton? You believe Eve, because of the curse in the garden underwent an immediate skeletal change which was the cause of pain in childbirth? What is your scriptural basis for making that claim? I understand pain in childbirth in the fall. Please explain where you find in the text that it is stated or implied thqat this is a skeletal change.

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

I would echo Canuckster's request. Unless you have access to Eve before the fall and Eve after the fall, you really have no evidence, do you?

YOu have yet to address the specifics of your arguments and that is what we are asking (or at least what I am asking). Were women's hips larger? Were babies heads smaller? How do you know? Scripture does not address the specifics so HOW DO YOU KNOW? What allows you to make such an assertion when scripture gives no specifics?

Even accepting that there is an element of pain in childbirth that is due to the curse, is that pain necessarily physical? COuld not the pain in childbirth also indicate the brokenness of the family relationship?!?! WHat if this indicates emotional pain? Spiritual anguish?

BEsides which, there are, even in this cursed world, a huge variety of anatomical differences in women. SOme women have virtually no labor pains and have very short labors. One woman in my church was in the church service while her labor was progressing and she left in the middle of the service and within an hour delivered her baby. My mom had very short labors...

Obviously no one is debating that childbirth is painful. I would debate that assertion that no animal feels pain during birth. There are plenty of examples of breech delivery in livestock, fetal death, and twisted limbs in delivery that would hinder the delivery of the baby. WOuld this not be painful!?!??!? Simply because animals don;t scream in pain or vocalize does not eliminate the idea of pain.

Your saying women don't have pain at birth? OKKKKKKKKKKK.
I say they do. They alone and the pain is for clear anatomical reasons that female animals don't have.
The pain in the bible at childbirth is clear. PAIN.
You seem surprised by all this. If corrected then perhaps there are many obvious things you can be corrected on.
There is hope for reformation.
Rob byers

[Robert Byers]

In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.

Did you ask these animals to see if they have pain?? Animals do not express pain like humans do. In childbirth, many animals just "grin and bear it" because there's no ability to curse and complain so why bother?

The difficulty of human childbirth is actually evidence of our evolutionary path. A tradeoff for standing upright is an awkward reproductive tract which leads to problems. I could ask you this: Why would God design humans in His image and make such an imperfect being? And believe me, human bodies are full of defects...

You contradict yourself. If birthpain is from standing erect then animals must not have same pain.
No they do nor grin and bear it. In fact animals are more scarry of pain then people. this is sad attempts.
Only our women have pain. The internet can provide details.
Indeed the evolution thumpers do have to reach for reasons why man is unique in this way.
You mean you have gone thrue life thinking all females have birthpain? No nature shows? Why would the author of genesis bring the subject up from a non believer point of view? They knew their audience surely was aware of this unique situation.
Theres a nat geographic article on it from a within a few years ago.
By the way the pain was punishment after the fact.
Rob byers

[Robert Byers]

The pain of childbirth is due to physical changes in the female body. Before the curse there was no pain and so a different body shape ala details.
In fact only woman have pain at childbirth as all animals do not have any pain in like manner. In fact no pain. not elephants or apes. This is due to the child coming thru a difficult passage. evolution has tried to explain this away by saying that walking upright changed this or that bone and so the size of children and female shape equals pain.
Robert byers

Bob,

Your premise is all wrong... In Genesis, God clearly stated that woman's pain would only increase in childbirth. Not begin after they sinned...

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

My premise isn't wrong. Its bulls eye.
Your own verse says WITH PAIN as opposed to before WITHOUT. Greatly means so much more. since we know the amount now then the previous state at worst must not be much. Perhaps the little pain is no more then what female critters now have.
Some here said they have pain and some here said women don't (in churches or something) so you guys need to get on the same page. Sorry for the intellectual shock. It is a hidden thing from the masses for obvious reasons.

The pain was a real punishment worthy of note and to separate from the previous state. I don't know the hebrew but since we know the amoint of pain now then we can extrapolate back to the original position and conclude that there was not pain but perhaps minor momentary irritation like with animals . They don't have pain but some are irritated.
The difference of our woman and critters is defined by the word pain. There is reasons for the pain. Animals don't have these reasons.
Surely the writer of genesis felt he was explaining a great difference in childbirth between women and animals.
If you think this is a bad premise well that explains why your mom creationist ideas are not well rooted.
Rob byers

[zoegirl]

Your saying women don't have pain at birth? OKKKKKKKKKKK.
I say they do. Rob byers

Clearly you don't read people's posts thorougly....read through mine again.

YOU claimed that there was a skeletal change (with absolutely NO evidence for this) in women that causes pain in childbirth

I said that there are SOME (note the operative word there....SOME...) women who have remarkably painless labors in comparison to others. I actually KNOW those women, contrary to your claim of eve's mysterious skeletal change. My own mother had quick labors, not to mention the woman in my church.

Clearly this mysterious skeletal change you speak of is not in effect in all women....THAT is my point.

STILL WAITING, by the way, for you to substantiate your claim to the skeletal change.

They alone and the pain is for clear anatomical reasons that female animals don't have.

So you are Doctor Doolittle now? You can talk to the animals? Hmm...you should hire yourself out to vets! Amazing!! You somehow have gained empathetic pwers with female animals.

The pain in the bible at childbirth is clear. PAIN.

First, I never said there wasn't any pain....I brought up the variety of the skeletal anatomy in women that contributes to the LEVEL of pain, in some (SOME) women this pain being quite small in comparison to others.

Secondly, Gman has brought up a valid point, you ignore that little adverb "greatly"

You seem surprised by all this. If corrected then perhaps there are many obvious things you can be corrected on.
There is hope for reformation.

Since when have I expressed surprise at the idea of pain in childbirth? We have drifted from your original assertion of a skeletal change in women....

I ASKED YOU TO SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION THAT THERE WAS A SKELETAL CHANGE IN WOMEN...you have yet to do so. My arguments have been addressed to this.

And I am surprised at your willingness to misunderstand and not read thoroughly the arguments presented in all of our posts.

Some food for thought about animal pain in labor....
http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/news/ar ... pain.shtml

http://www.asaabstracts.com/strands/asa ... absnum=378

http://www.2ndchance.info/caninelaborstages.htm