Evidence for God from Science

i've been thinking about the concept of 'hell' a lot lately, for a couple reasons... first of all, im sick of hearing and seeing other christians pull out the "hell card" so to speak, when they are trying to share and justify their faith to others. telling someone they should believe in Christ because if they don't they will burn in hell is lazy, and it comes off as more of a threat than anything else. not only that, it's not a good reason to believe! Jesus is more than a "get out of hell free" card.

that being said, ive heard a lot of atheists say that once they die, they will simply cease to exist. the common response is usually something like "No, you will burn in hell." my question is, what if they're right? yes, the bible does describe hell as a place of death and destruction... but aren't those finite processes? hell is always considered a place of punishment; is there any worse punishment than being wiped from existence? no consciousness, no individuality, no soul... nothing.

when the bible talks about hell, often times it uses the image of fire. what does fire do? it burns, yes, but deeper than that, it destroys... it turns anything and everything into ashes and smoke, essentially wiping things out from existence. when a house burns down, the essence or "individuality" of that house is completely erased, and there is nothing left.

im not saying i actually believe this, it's just an idea that ran through my mind. i don't want to offend anyone who is an expert on this "doctrine" (or whatever you call it) so i would love to hear thoughts and criticisms. i read my bible every night but i am by no means an expert, so i am fully open to someone whipping out a bible verse and proving me wrong right here and now. but before anyone accuses me of "sugar coating" the concept of hell, i must repeat: i firmly believe that this state of non-existence IS consistent with the state of torment described in the bible... like i said, what could be worse punishment than having your soul completely erased from existence? think of being tortured here on earth... say you're a soldier being tormented in an enemy prison camp. even while you're tied up and enduring the most horrible forms of punishment known to man... you've still got your self, your soul, your individuality.

if more Christians opened themselves up to this idea, maybe conversations like this would occur:

atheist: I don't believe in God.
christian: Don't you wonder what will happen to you after you die?
atheist: I will cease to exist and my body will rot in the ground.
christian: Maybe you're right... But why are you okay with that?
If you could avoid it, wouldn't you?

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As many other will disagree with me, I would more agree with you on this concept of hell...that being apart from God with no promise of ANY existence is hell. While there will be burning (I don't discount the manner in which God will employ His punishment) the burning will cease, much like the scriptures say the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of what will happen in the last days. (2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7)
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tommyboy605182 wrote:that being said, ive heard a lot of atheists say that once they die, they will simply cease to exist. the common response is usually something like "No, you will burn in hell." my question is, what if they're right? yes, the bible does describe hell as a place of death and destruction... but aren't those finite processes? hell is always considered a place of punishment; is there any worse punishment than being wiped from existence? no consciousness, no individuality, no soul... nothing.

umm okay, would you rather be burning in a fire for eternity or not exist?

Burning forever would be MUCH worse than ceasing to exist. If you ceased to exist, you would not know that you had ceased to exist and it wouldn't be torment at all.

In revelations, its pretty clear that the "burning" will not cease. I think its sort of wishful thinking that since Sodom and Gomorrah stopped burning after a while, hell will too. The question is, is the "burning" literal or figurative? I'm more inclined to believe that it's figurative.

Also, why is it that people often try to think of the worst possible torture and then think that thats what hell is? I don't really think that the bible discribes hell as God trying his hardest to torture non believers after death, but more as where the non believer is made aware of God's absolute goodness and attractiveness, and upon relizing that they're missing out on it, the "burning" sets in.

My two cents

Seraph wrote:Burning forever would be MUCH worse than ceasing to exist. If you ceased to exist, you would not know that you had ceased to exist and it wouldn't be torment at all.

In revelations, its pretty clear that the "burning" will not cease. I think its sort of wishful thinking that since Sodom and Gomorrah stopped burning after a while, hell will too. The question is, is the "burning" literal or figurative? I'm more inclined to believe that it's figurative.

Also, why is it that people often try to think of the worst possible torture and then think that thats what hell is? I don't really think that the bible discribes hell as God trying his hardest to torture non believers after death, but more as where the non believer is made aware of God's absolute goodness and attractiveness, and upon relizing that they're missing out on it, the "burning" sets in.

My two cents

i don't deny that there will be suffering and "burning," whether literal or figurative. i just have a problem believing that it will be eternal.

not just because i don't want to believe God would create such a place- i mean, that's part of it i guess. i think everybody has trouble with that concept every now and then, and i know for a fact some people have so much trouble with it that they turn away from God.

it's not just that though... it just seems more logical to me that a soul in hell would cease to exist. Jesus promised eternal life for believers... what is the opposite of that? eternal death? does such a thing exist? if God gives every soul one life and one chance to choose him, and that's it, and you've got a bunch of souls who DID NOT choose him, why would God keep those souls alive for eternity just to inflict his wrath on them? i can't think of an answer, not that i don't think God has an answer, maybe he does and my heart is too hard to understand it right now. it makes more sense to me that he wouldn't even bother with them- he would toss them aside and they would face oblivion. the concept of hell being a temporary place and the gateway to non-existence (TRUE death) makes much more sense to me than it being a place for eternal punishment of living souls.

tommyboy605182 wrote:

Seraph wrote:Burning forever would be MUCH worse than ceasing to exist. If you ceased to exist, you would not know that you had ceased to exist and it wouldn't be torment at all.

In revelations, its pretty clear that the "burning" will not cease. I think its sort of wishful thinking that since Sodom and Gomorrah stopped burning after a while, hell will too. The question is, is the "burning" literal or figurative? I'm more inclined to believe that it's figurative.

Also, why is it that people often try to think of the worst possible torture and then think that thats what hell is? I don't really think that the bible discribes hell as God trying his hardest to torture non believers after death, but more as where the non believer is made aware of God's absolute goodness and attractiveness, and upon relizing that they're missing out on it, the "burning" sets in.

My two cents

i don't deny that there will be suffering and "burning," whether literal or figurative. i just have a problem believing that it will be eternal.

not just because i don't want to believe God would create such a place- i mean, that's part of it i guess. i think everybody has trouble with that concept every now and then, and i know for a fact some people have so much trouble with it that they turn away from God.

it's not just that though... it just seems more logical to me that a soul in hell would cease to exist. Jesus promised eternal life for believers... what is the opposite of that? eternal death? does such a thing exist? if God gives every soul one life and one chance to choose him, and that's it, and you've got a bunch of souls who DID NOT choose him, why would God keep those souls alive for eternity just to inflict his wrath on them? i can't think of an answer, not that i don't think God has an answer, maybe he does and my heart is too hard to understand it right now. it makes more sense to me that he wouldn't even bother with them- he would toss them aside and they would face oblivion. the concept of hell being a temporary place and the gateway to non-existence (TRUE death) makes much more sense to me than it being a place for eternal punishment of living souls.

I agree, it would seem pointlessly cruel and pretty un-God like to keep souls alive forever just for the sake of torturing them. I've come to believe that once people reject God and its past the point of no return (death), all God can really do is leave them outside his presence, which is Hell. I don't really think that God is making a conscious effort to punish the person. Maybe I'm just doing some wishful thinking myself...

tommyboy605182 wrote:the concept of hell being a temporary place and the gateway to non-existence (TRUE death) makes much more sense to me than it being a place for eternal punishment of living souls.

...and I would agree with you. While there are many that don't like the words of scripture, it is clear Sodom and Gomorrah, which were examples of those whom will suffer hell...neither city is burning today. "Eternal" as in it's consequence...not it's duration.
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Revelation makes it clear that the people in Hell are "tormented day and night for ever and ever" and Jesus described Hell as a place where "the worm never dies". It is a HUGE stretch to ignore this because of dumb speculation that "Sodom and Gommorah aren't burning today so Hell must be the same way".

Seraph wrote:dumb speculation

I'm sorry you take such offense to the words of scripture.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Seraph wrote:dumb speculation

I'm sorry you take such offense to the words of scripture.
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Thats just it. They aren't the words of scripture. Its speculation that comes from twisting scripture.

Seraph wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Seraph wrote:dumb speculation

I'm sorry you take such offense to the words of scripture.
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Thats just it. They aren't the words of scripture. Its speculation that comes from twisting scripture.

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 wrote: if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

NIV Jude 1:7 wrote: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

You tell me how I twisted the words.
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Those verses don't suggest what you're suggesting. It says that unbelievers will expierience judgement in the same way that Sodom and Gomorrah did, I agree with this 100%. It does not however, suggest what your saying, that since Sodom and Gomorrah's punishment was temporary, Hell is temporary. Thus, you are twisting scripture by claiming it does. In fact, it says RIGHT IN THE VERSE that it is eternal. If it ended then it wouldn't be eternal.

Tell me how your NOT ignoring these verses

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matt 25:46)
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out" (Mark 9:43)
"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name" (Revelations 14:11)

Seraph wrote:Those verses don't suggest what you're suggesting. It says that unbelievers will expierience judgement in the same way that Sodom and Gomorrah did, I agree with this 100%. It does not however, suggest what your saying, that since Sodom and Gomorrah's punishment was temporary, Hell is temporary. Thus, you are twisting scripture by claiming it does. In fact, it says RIGHT IN THE VERSE that it is eternal. If it ended then it wouldn't be eternal.

Tell me how your NOT ignoring these verses

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matt 25:46)
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out" (Mark 9:43)
"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name" (Revelations 14:11)

how does being eternally non-existent (as in absolutely no chance of ever coming back) contradict the concept of eternal hell?

so hell is eternal, okay... can't someone be dead for an eternity? what i don't understand, is HOW is this NOT eternal punishment?

I guess it could be

I just don't see evidence that the person stops existing in Hell is all...

Seraph wrote:Burning forever would be MUCH worse than ceasing to exist. If you ceased to exist, you would not know that you had ceased to exist and it wouldn't be torment at all.

In revelations, its pretty clear that the "burning" will not cease. I think its sort of wishful thinking that since Sodom and Gomorrah stopped burning after a while, hell will too. The question is, is the "burning" literal or figurative? I'm more inclined to believe that it's figurative.

Also, why is it that people often try to think of the worst possible torture and then think that thats what hell is? I don't really think that the bible discribes hell as God trying his hardest to torture non believers after death, but more as where the non believer is made aware of God's absolute goodness and attractiveness, and upon relizing that they're missing out on it, the "burning" sets in.

My two cents

I am inclined to agree with you here. I believe the fire is figurative here - a metaphor for everlasting judgement. Because how can you have fire and absolute darkness. Hell is complete seperation from God - which leads to the gnashing of teeth. Torturing people for all eternity does not match the Character of a loving God. That God is a sadist and one I refuse to acknowledge.

I believe Hell is torture for all eternity, but it is not God that inflicts that torture - it is simply God giving people what they want - seperation from him - and on Judgement day when they see the glory of God and are cast away, it is because of their free choices in life led them to that.

Where there is no God is utter darkness and that terrifies me. That is hell.