The Hope of Atheism and Humanism: The Ultimate Fate of...
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:51 pm
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
I would think it doesn't matter since God lives outside and probably throughout the universe(s)...Screwtape wrote:Good article, Rich.
One question, though. How would the theory of the muliverse or a universe that is ever created and destroyed fit in with you article. It seems to me that the atheist could easily argue from either of these two positions and effectively invalidate your argument.
I disagree with the above statement.Cross.eyed wrote:Without God, there is no hope for any type of future; no justice, a mere meaningless existence, no purpose etc.
Well this is just odd, sc. Are you trying to be funny? I don't get the impression you are. All these things you're talking about are just cold things, even when talking about reproduction in the way you do. If there is no meaning and hope in life, from a human's heart or soul perspective, then people start killing themselves, not reproducing.SaintConfused wrote:I disagree with the above statement.Cross.eyed wrote:Without God, there is no hope for any type of future; no justice, a mere meaningless existence, no purpose etc.
Conservation law of matter, provides a universal 'meaning'/'purpose'. It might not be the expected one, it might not be the most exciting, but
it certainly serves for hope, meaning, and purpose (the universe doesn't follow a justice system, so this is why I didn't apply it with the others).
There are plentiful other independent 'parts' within nature that provide meaning, hope, and purpose for humanity. The water cycle provides
'meaning'/'purpose' as well and it doesn't require a deity attachment such as 'Lady of the lake' or 'Poseidon'. Farming is an agricultural Terran
species 'meaning'/'purpose' and it simply requires humanity knowing a certain amount about their environment including during rough seasons.
Volcanoes, provide life and take it with a 'meaning' / 'purpose' of repeated carbon-dioxide emissions (keeping the planet warm & the atmosphere
strong). Supernovae gives more chemical elements too other stars, preserving the plasma activity within the universe, another 'meaning'/'purpose'
with distant planetary systems and whatever life exists therein. Medical Technology helps our biological systems as another vital part of any
culture or populated area. There is another 'meaning'/'purpose'. Reproductive System(s) preserves the attributes of parents for children,
and sexual evolution is more in favor then asexual for a majority of species. The 'meaning'/'purpose' lies within the name, the ability to
reproduce. etc.
I can't even afford a clown costume, so nope.Are you trying to be funny?
Cold has value, purpose, meaning as well. For instance, without winter, certain plants wouldn't bloom later on after that period of reduced heat.All these things you're talking about are just cold things.
I apologize, I didn't mean too harm you're perspective in any way.even when talking about reproduction in the way you do.
This is why I wouldn't mind having an 'animal' body or manifestation, it's a more comforting perspective than that of a human. Suicide takesIf there is no meaning and hope in life, from a human's heart or soul perspective, then people start killing themselves, not reproducing.
and my stomach is violating virtue against my whole self/being.My brain is both freaked and sad.
That's right, in the particular focus that hope comes in a maintained body (h+At the end you said you feel hopeless.
So the following do not apply. (I'm not trying to provoke an argument here, just wouldJesus said that when you see him, you see the father.
I don't understand you're question enough to answer, I have opinions about him, not sure what you mean by saying 'belief' though.~SCWhat is your belief about Jesus?
SaintConfused wrote:and my stomach is violating virtue against my whole self/being.My brain is both freaked and sad.That's right, in the particular focus that hope comes in a maintained body (h+At the end you said you feel hopeless.
What is your belief about Jesus?
I don't understand you're question enough to answer, I have opinions about him, not sure what you mean by saying 'belief' though.~SC
I haven't claimed the verses as my own property. I'm neither Moses, Malachi, Isaiah, or God. I'm not denying any reasoning to be doneDespite your verses, there's plenty of reason to believe that God manifests Himself
as the Father, Son, and Holy spirit (whether you want to call it the 'trinity' or not).
OK, I can go with that. It still doesn't support a co-equal Trinity, or the one God allowing Jesus to be part of him. So John calls Jesus creator,All those manifestations of the one creator God are discussed in the NT (including John saying that Jesus was from the beginning, and creator).
Did I say it was wholly false? no. Please don't put words in my mouth.So do you believe the whole NT is false?
OK then, anything else I 'have to' do? Jesus admits none (including The Spirit and himself) knows more than the Father, there isn't a co-equal relationship if we accept what he says and not what we mentally want him to say. Mark 13:26-27,32 And then shall they see the Son of man comingYou would pretty much have to, since it's about Jesus being in the Father and doing the work of Him, and the Holy Spirit doing works from the Father too.
All I said is I'm neither for or against the Trinity doctrine, God's Word does not teach of himself being composed of more than one 'person'.If you simply do not believe the teachings of the NT, you should say so.
I only mentioned 'The Father' and 'The Son' as examples of what I was trying to elaborate on because I disagreed with what was said by Cross.eyed.I guess I gave those verses, and you didn't address them.
Covering Gen to Rev all for one post seems a bit unnecessary.It seems that your reasoning to deny Jesus' diety doesn't take the whole bible into account.
Sorry my view bothers you.just the ones that support your view.
I don't see how a glorification or ascension would automatically make a person of God, including Jesus. Elijah had ascended,I don't know the theology of this actually, but Jesus as a man was not yet fully glorified while here on earth, so there are verses that are going to reflect that as well.
I don't want to be a nuisance.you still haven't gone to the trinity thread.
I'm not about to get into a big debate on the trinity, or the fact that Jesus himself is the same God as the God of Israel.
I'm just an amateur, not even in college.why don't you go to that thread and deal with things there?
Answering isn't the problem, answering properly/right/correctly takes time for me.If you could answer to the data there, I'm sure people would be interested.
OK, it just seems that when Jesus is saying that when you see him, you see the Father, that that's significant. And Thomas calls Jesus God. And he's not the first or only one.SaintConfused wrote:I only mentioned 'The Father' and 'The Son' as examples of what I was trying to elaborate on because I disagreed with what was said by Cross.eyed.I guess I gave those verses, and you didn't address them.
It seems that your reasoning to deny Jesus' diety doesn't take the whole bible into account.
And I wouldn't expect you to. My point was, when you read the bible from cover to cover, you get impressions of God's character and God's truth that you might not get from just doing word searches and such. I don't know how you study God's word, I was just saying.Covering Gen to Rev all for one post seems a bit unnecessary.
just the ones that support your view.
It's not your view that bothers me, but the information provided to support your view. I'm willing to look at both sides of debate to see what the best answer is, but I need to feel that the information is balanced.Sorry my view bothers you.
I don't know the theology of this actually, but Jesus as a man was not yet fully glorified while here on earth, so there are verses that are going to reflect that as well.
Then you're not reading the whole verse. Jesus says "glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." This isn't just a person ascending or being glorified.I don't see how glorification or ascension would automatically make a person of God, including Jesus. Elijah had ascended, yet he's not part of the Trinity. Don't let my opinion get the best of you, I'm just a confused human and nothing special.
If you could answer to the data there, I'm sure people would be interested.
OK. Before, you got upset that I was putting words in your mouth, about not believing all of the NT, but I asked about it. I would still be interested in what you think of Jesus - is he a saviour or not - and whatever else you think. There is very standard church doctrine and theology on who Jesus is. How do your views differ from basic doctrine? Someone asked Karl Barth once what was the most important thing in the bible, or the most important doctrine, and surprisingly he answered using a children's song: "Jesus loves me, this I know, 'cause the bible tells me so." What does this love mean? How does it manifest itself?I'm just an amateur, not even in college.
Answering isn't the problem, answering properly/right/correctly takes time for me.
~SC