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This is bothering me...
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:20 pm
by Athiest2Christian
Can someone please explain this to me.
God created time and space.
This implies that there has to be something besides time and space, from which time and space were created.
We can draw a point on paper, a single dimension, and we can continuously move that point to create a 2 dimensional curve.
We can take that curve and move it through space to create a 3 dimensional surface. But that's as far as we can go; we only live in 4 dimensions.
God can take that 3 dimensional surface, and move it through time to create a 4 dimensional time-surface continuum. For God to do this, He must live in at least 5 dimensions.
Now, God has made us the promise of everlasting life, which means He's got to allow us to live in that 5th dimension because we'll live outside of time.
So if we die, and get everlasting life, we'll live outside time too.
But right now we're living inside time. So we'll be both inside and outside time, but that's a logical contradiction.
So how can we die and go to heaven and live outside of time, given that we're living in time right now?
Thoughts? Comments?
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:10 am
by Kurieuo
Although I'm not sure what the poll has to do with your previous message, there are varying philosophies on time. While I could possibly make some guesses, I'm not exactly sure what type of view you're coming from on time and God's relationship to it.
A2C wrote:We can take that curve and move it through space to create a 3 dimensional surface. But that's as far as we can go; we only live in 4 dimensions.
Actually many physicists (string theorists) believe our universe contains 11 space-time dimensions.
A2C wrote:God can take that 3 dimensional surface, and move it through time to create a 4 dimensional time-surface continuum. For God to do this, He must live in at least 5 dimensions.
This sounds very much like Hugh Ross' idea of how God interacts with our world. Ross believes God can move in as many dimensions as required. I'm just not sure I can buy that such omni-dimensionality is compatible with what "timelessness" would imply. While I don't follow Ross' beliefs on time myself, a book you might find interesting if you ever have the time (no pun intended
) is his
Creation and Time.
A2C wrote:So if we die, and get everlasting life, we'll live outside time too.
This is where I part ways with following you, as I don't believe is it possible for us to be atemporal. Saying something once "was" temporal, but then becomes atemporal... that implies one comes before the other--time. Such a scenario leads to absurdities (as you yourself seem to have realised), and therefore it seems to me that such a belief ought to be rejected.
In addition, there are many different views on time, and on God's relationship to time. I personally advocate that God is atemporal subsequent to His creation, and temporal with His creation. It seems the most logical to me... yet some also try to maintain that God is timeless even now, while others even advocate that God is simply temporal. You could say I take a middle view.
If interested further in this issue, I would recommend
God & Time: Four Views as a good introduction to the varying positions.
Kind regards,
Kurieuo.
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:36 am
by Jac3510
A2C wrote:But right now we're living inside time. So we'll be both inside and outside time, but that's a logical contradiction.
I'm guessing you have a static view of God's relationship to time (Lewis, Augustine). For the most part, I agree with that position, I think. In any case, there are two possible solutions:
1) The new world God will create will not be physical. Time, as we know, is nothing more than a physical property of the universe. Of course, if you accept this, you have to agree that all the language used to describe the New Creation is metaphorical. In any case, this is a viable option, because you aren't living inside and outside of time "at the same time." Your nature was, at one point, temporal, and at another temporal. This would be impossible if you were doing it yourself, but if you move through an atemporal channel, it becomes quite possible. For instance:
temporal --> atemporal
that's impossible, but:
Code: Select all
___________Atemporal________
| |
| |
| |
temporal atemporal
That makes more sense. Notice that the temporal does not lead to the atemporal, but you are leaving a temporal state and entering a "super-existent" atemporal state from which you can "stay" atemporal.
A less complicated solution:
2) The new world is simply everlasting, yet physical. In this case, you would not be living outside of time after death, but inside of time. You would move from temporal to temporal.
Or, you can abandon the static view entirely and take on a dynamic view, which leads to (2), but in any case resolves this particular problem.
Hope this helps.
God bless
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:18 pm
by Anonymous
to tell you the truth it doesn't matter what space dimension we are in are what time dinner is, just as long as we keep God and heaven number one on our thinking about list
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:55 am
by Anonymous
Because as God created time...nothing is impossable for him ...so he can get us to live outside of it....thats taking the assuption its outside of time as well...there always the 6th dimention...Gods relm
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:06 am
by fizzzzzzzzzzzy
I'm not sure what you are saying is a contridction.
if you are currently living in a 4-dimensional world and when you die, you go to whatever dimension that God is in(assuming that God is in a physical, dimensional world). So you would never be in more than one world at a time
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:47 am
by Elisa
My thoughts are, firstly, if God is infinite and always exists in the next dimension, then wouldn't there be a limitless number of dimensions in the universe-?
Also, if God exists outside of the 4th dimension (time) then, some God must exist to create that God -as with the Cosmological argument about God; ie: basically that: if God created the world, then who/what created God-? ...it follows that everything must just have always existed. And that God exists always in the next dimension of whatever dimension you are looking at. The best and simplest example (I believe) of this is discovering that Good and Evil don't really exist as distinct elements from one another, but rather as joined Good and Evil; or God= Alpha and Omega, as opposed to us thinking that it is purely Alpha ...and, as I believe you mentioned: God existing outside the dimension of time -well yes, God would;however, wouldn't it be in a dimension within it?
...anyhow, it's pretty confusing for me, but my theory lately has been that the mind always seeks Alpha, as opposed to Alpha and Omega; and this is why ideas of God are confusing. God is the inner dimension within everything -but how can you discover this, since, like tomorrow: you aren;t there yet-? I actually think that it's necessary to accept that it is always like this.
Re: This is bothering me...
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:56 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
Athiest2Christian wrote:Can someone please explain this to me.
God created time and space.
This implies that there has to be something besides time and space, from which time and space were created.
We can draw a point on paper, a single dimension, and we can continuously move that point to create a 2 dimensional curve.
We can take that curve and move it through space to create a 3 dimensional surface. But that's as far as we can go; we only live in 4 dimensions.
God can take that 3 dimensional surface, and move it through time to create a 4 dimensional time-surface continuum. For God to do this, He must live in at least 5 dimensions.
Now, God has made us the promise of everlasting life, which means He's got to allow us to live in that 5th dimension because we'll live outside of time.
So if we die, and get everlasting life, we'll live outside time too.
But right now we're living inside time. So we'll be both inside and outside time, but that's a logical contradiction.
So how can we die and go to heaven and live outside of time, given that we're living in time right now?
Thoughts? Comments?
Not really a contradiction at all. In the above statement all the smaller dimentions are within and make up the world of higher dimentions. So a Fourth dimentional being would be able to move in our three dimentions as well as traverse in the fourth dimention.
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:01 pm
by Fisherman
There are as many dimensions as God made and He lives in all of them. I'll go with that.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:38 am
by Jbuza
Fisherman wrote:There are as many dimensions as God made and He lives in all of them. I'll go with that.
Love your Avatar, and agree with you.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:49 pm
by Fisherman
Jbuza wrote:Fisherman wrote:There are as many dimensions as God made and He lives in all of them. I'll go with that.
Love your Avatar, and agree with you.
Thanks. I'm thinking about replacing the fish with a man coming out of the water. This guy's fishing for fish. LOL I'll have to play with it.
time and space
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:04 am
by kknudsen
Since you begin with the following....I would pause at your first statement.
This implies that there has to be something besides time and space, from which time and space were created
If God is God...and I'm not....then why does God have to have "something" to start with? Can it all come in existence just by His spoken word.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
By "visible" we might assume (a little stretch) that the worlds were made out of nothing...not visible even with an electron microscope.
Yet He also MADE invisible things....
Col. 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
I would take that to mean angelic beings, gravity, magnetism etc. Things which can't be seen.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
"I am the Lord, and there is none else.
In light of what God says about His creation...I surely must spend more time in AWE and worship...and a little time in wondering HOW.
My thoughts are worth what you pay for them.
KK