God and Omniscience??

[Imperium]

If God is(as many Christians believe) omniscient, that is knowing everything that was, is and will be but also gives us free will doesn't that create a paradox?? If God gives us free will as human being knowing what we will do then isnt that free will meaningless?? Omnscience and Free will are mutually exclusive.you cant have both, only one or the other.So this means God must either be an omniscient creator who wants us all to be robots to his divine will or a non-omniscient deisgner that lets us make our own choices, and will love us regardless of what we do with them.

But which one of these is the real God?? Personally I'd much rather believe in a God that lets us use the free will he apparently has given us and allow us to come to our full potential, for slavery of any kind is inhuman whether or not it is to Gods will.

[sasha]

Just because God may be omniscient, doesn't mean giving us free will is pointless.
He may know what's going to happen, but we don't. And that's the point.
God gave us free will because He wants us to WANT to worship Him,
rather than being obliged.
He created us for us to love Him and be loved by Him.
Being omniscient, He would know that we won't all love Him,
but obviously enough of us would love Him enough for it to be worth it,
and an amusing game too.

[Silvertusk]

This may not be theologically sound but I kind of have two views on this. In each one we have free will. The first is that we are travelling along a linear timeline making choices. We can only go one direction. Now imagine this line as a line drawn on a piece of paper. Now imagine Gods perspective as a circle drawn around that line. From Gods view he can see the line at any point, therefore he knows the choices that we make. But it is still our decision to make them. Someone having a unique perspective on the choices we are going to make in life does not affect our ability to freely make those choices.

Another view i have is that God Omnisence comes from the fact that he can see all the possible outcomes of every decision we make but we still have the freewill to choose which of those paths we are going to take. What God then does it to make the best of the path we do end up taking.

Just my two cents.


Silvertusk.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

which one of these is the real God??

I am God...I make known the end from the beginning, -Isaiah 46:9-10

In the above verses, as in many others throughout the Bible, God states His foreknowledge of that which is to happen.

If God gives us free will as human being knowing what we will do then isnt that free will meaningless??

So I told you, but you would not listen. You rebelled against the Lord's command and in your arrogance... -Dt 1:43

In the above passage - and many others which I could quote - the Bible makes clear through the pronoun you that the decision to rebell is an act of freewill.

Omnscience and Free will are mutually exclusive.

This is incorrect. Those on this board versed in logic could probably explain why your statement is false...I can't. However, I once heard evangelist Chuck Swindoll explain how omniscience and freewill can co-exist:

Imagine you record a football game on your VCR at home. Later that night, you sit down to watch the recorded game. You already know the outcome of the game beforehand, but each play - each tackle - every move of that game was a product of Freewill.

I can live with that.

Can you?

[Imperium]

Another view i have is that God Omnisence comes from the fact that he can see all the possible outcomes of every decision we make but we still have the freewill to choose which of those paths we are going to take. What God then does it to make the best of the path we do end up taking.

I would agree with you on that one but for one point.God doesn't appear to try make the best out of what we do-he punishes us! If he did try why would there be a need for divine punishment? The bible is full of an angry weath bearing deity that punishes people's freely made choice to NOT follow his supposed 'word'

[Imperium]

Imagine you record a football game on your VCR at home. Later that night, you sit down to watch the recorded game. You already know the outcome of the game beforehand, but each play - each tackle - every move of that game was a product of Freewill.

I can live with that.

Can you?

But from the perspective of the football game it doesnt have the choice to change its outcome. Its made up of free actions yet is not free. Although i do like the idea of a passively omniscient God-if only he didnt punish us for exercising our will so often

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

But from the perspective of the football game it doesnt have the choice to change its outcome.

A football game has no perspective in and of itself.

Its made up of free actions yet is not free.

Putting aside the fact that a football game has no perspective «itself,» how can some[body] have free actions and yet not have a free will?

Although i do like the idea of a passively omniscient God-if only he didnt punish us for exercising our will so often

This is not the God of the Bible...but you have the freedom of will to create and admire that god if you wish.

[Imperium]

Although i do like the idea of a passively omniscient God-if only he didnt punish us for exercising our will so often

This is not the God of the Bible...but you have the freedom of will to create and admire that god if you wish.

Well thats what many Christians have led me to think thats what they believe.That God punishes us and the only way to escape punishment is to make the choice to follow in what they say the God of the bible says. And very often the quotes they use arent from say, the Gospel of Luke (personally my favourite ) but from the OT.So I ask you this?? If we choose to not believe im God will we be punished for 'abusing' our free will?

[Kurieuo]

Omnscience and Free will are mutually exclusive.you cant have both, only one or the other.

How are they exclusive? This isn't clear to me at all.

If I know what someone did in the past, and they can't change what they did, then does that mean they have no free will when they performed their action? If not, then please explain why does it change all of a sudden just because the situation is reversed into the future?

[Imperium]

Well lets assume God knows infallibly and unfailingly everything that was is and will be, including the choices were going to make.Yet gives us free will.Free will is the ability to make choices indpendently of all outside influence, including the preknowledge of God. And if thats not mutually exclusive i dont know what is.If he knows what were going to choose why give us free will in the first place?? Free choice would be nothing more than an Orwellian rubberstamping of Gods preknowledge,and by definition not free at all.

It would appear that not only does God work in mysterious ways, but in very Machiavellian ones as well.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

It has suddenly dawned on my thick skull that your actually objecting to predestination vs. man's free will.

Am I correct?

As for your question:

If we choose to not believe in God will we be punished for 'abusing' our free will?

Yes...but you already knew the answer, I'm sure!

[Imperium]

It has suddenly dawned on my thick skull that your actually objecting to predestination vs. man's free will.

Am I correct?

Ahh that makes a lot more sense to me as well !! but isnt predestination tied in with Omniscience??

Yes...but you already knew the answer, I'm sure!

And yes I do know the answer but what i don't know if its the right one or not. I mean why believe in a God that punishes at all?? with my limited human intellect all I can process is punishment=bad

[Kurieuo]

Well lets assume God knows infallibly and unfailingly everything that was is and will be, including the choices were going to make.Yet gives us free will.Free will is the ability to make choices indpendently of all outside influence, including the preknowledge of God. And if thats not mutually exclusive i dont know what is.If he knows what were going to choose why give us free will in the first place?? Free choice would be nothing more than an Orwellian rubberstamping of Gods preknowledge,and by definition not free at all.

So even if God knows infallibly and unfailingly everything that was is and will be, it can still be the fact God's knowledge of what we will actually do is contingent upon our choices. For your argument to be sound, it needs to be shown that our free will is contingent upon God's knowing, but there is no reason to believe this is the case at all.

Furthermore, I would challenge the idea that there is even necessarily a relationship between someone having "complete knowledge" of a person's actions (i.e., such as God, or lets say a 100% accurate psychic) and such knowledge necessarily needing to be based upon the action itself. Such knowledge could rather just be known. In such a case the omniscient person (God or psychic) would just know what is, rather than needing the action or its reality thereof.

We here have two options out:
1) The contingency of knowing is on the persons actions (not the other way around); or
2) There is no correlation between knowledge of an action and the action itself (such knowledge just is)

The second is getting much deeper than is really needed here to fend off your challenge, but I offer it up to try show why I see that the burden of proof is clearly on those who claim that in "knowing something" there must necessarily exist a correlation between "knowing" and the "something". Why such knowledge just can't be innate needs to be logically ruled out before the argument you present can even be considered.

[Kurieuo]

And yes I do know the answer but what i don't know if its the right one or not. I mean why believe in a God that punishes at all?? with my limited human intellect all I can process is punishment=bad

"The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God is hardly less formidable than a cosmic sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal the less we can believe that there's any use in begging for tenderness. The kinder and conscientious he is the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to our entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would be useless. What do people mean when they say 'I am not afraid of God because He is good?' Have they not been to a dentist?" - CS Lewis

[Imperium]

"The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God is hardly less formidable than a cosmic sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal the less we can believe that there's any use in begging for tenderness. The kinder and conscientious he is the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to our entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would be useless. What do people mean when they say 'I am not afraid of God because He is good?' Have they not been to a dentist?" - CS Lewis

Ahhh C.S Lewis, now there was a man that understood human nature... just like Frank Herbert

What people fear when they go to dentists is the unknown, the uncontrolled and the unseen. There is a deep and lasting tendency in all people to fear what they do not know or cannot control.myself included. the act of faith removes that barrier between ourselves and God for we know rationally and consciously that he exits,see him in the smile of a baby or in the glory of the universe and even though we cant control him, know what he wants us to do.

But the thing is in all honesty I do not fear God.If i know God (and I hope I do) I need not fear him. All I need to do is try, as humble as my efforts are, to be a good person and try love my fellow man a tiny billionth of a trillionth as much as God does.