Evidence for God from Science

I don't know much about the Bible and I don't know many Christians so sorry if my question is naive or stupid...

I understand Jesus spent much of his life preaching that he was the way, the light, and the life (or something), suggesting he offered salvation before his persecution and death. On the other hand I understand it was Jesus' sacrifice that gave us salvation, i.e. no salvation until after his 'death'. So my question is: Did Jesus' life or his 'death' give us salvation?

Cyclist wrote:I don't know much about the Bible and I don't know many Christians so sorry if my question is naive or stupid...

I understand Jesus spent much of his life preaching that he was the way, the light, and the life (or something), suggesting he offered salvation before his persecution and death. On the other hand I understand it was Jesus' sacrifice that gave us salvation, i.e. no salvation until after his 'death'. So my question is: Did Jesus' life or his 'death' give us salvation?

In one sense, you can't separate the two. Jesus death was sufficient for us because of who Jesus is, and also because He succeeded as the second Adam where the first Adam and us with him, failed.

There is a sense in which salvation came before Christ's death and resurrection but even that was looking forward to what Christ would accomplish on our behalf to reconicile us unto God. It all ties together, but the primary element in salvation is the death and resurrection of Christ as an atonement on our behalf to reconcile us to God.

Thanks Canuckster1127.

I can see that the two can't be separated. I guess I'm asking a 'when' question. Before Jesus people couldn't accept him as their saviour, and since Jesus everyone and anyone can. But I'm unlcear whether Christians believe people could accept Jesus as their personal saviour during his lifetime but before the crucifiction.

Cyclist wrote:Thanks Canuckster1127.

I can see that the two can't be separated. I guess I'm asking a 'when' question. Before Jesus people couldn't accept him as their saviour, and since Jesus everyone and anyone can. But I'm unlcear whether Christians believe people could accept Jesus as their personal saviour during his lifetime but before the crucifiction.

There are theories about that in different Christian traditions. Some believe in the OT before Christ came to make atonement, that those who died under the promise of what was to come, either entered a state of suspended animation (soul sleep) or were kept in a special place that was not heaven but neither was it hell (paradise is a common term, and some take the parable of the begger in Abraham's bosom as well as Christ's words to the thief on the Cross as evidence of this.)

Some believe the promise of what was to come was sufficient.

I frankly don't profess to have it all worked out nor do I think we have to. I believe God's plan is just and that God's love is not arbitrary and that he worked those things out to His own satisfaction. My faith in that regard is in the nature of God and not my understanding.

I'm not saying it isn't a valuable question or that the Scripture doesn't have more to say on it that that. Not at all. I think God does give us glimpses to understand what we can about matters like this and it is always worthwhile to study and know more and seek to understand what God has revealed. There's a point however where we go beyond and the knowing becomes more important to us than the person of God and that's a position of diminishing returns in my opinion.

I hope that helps. Maybe others can provide some better detailed answers than mine.

I can see that the two can't be separated. I guess I'm asking a 'when' question. Before Jesus people couldn't accept him as their saviour, and since Jesus everyone and anyone can. But I'm unlcear whether Christians believe people could accept Jesus as their personal saviour during his lifetime but before the crucifiction.

Yeah, they could. Read through John's Gospel.

In proper Christian theology, we see that Jesus' death makes all men savable (contrary to Reformed Theology, but we're dealing with a technicality there, anyway, that doesn't matter to your question) in that it took care of the sin problem. However, it is Jesus' life that actually saves us, and that is true whether you lived before Christ, during His earthly ministry, or today. Jesus' death took care of your sin; when you believe (see John 3:16), God gives to you Jesus' own righteousness.

It is helpful to look at it this way: on the Cross, God put your sin to Jesus' account. When you believe, God put Jesus' righteous life to your account. So getting rid of your sins isn't enough. You have to have Jesus' righteousness (which means His right standing before God), which you get through faith.

Charles Ryrie offered a very good summation of this point:

• The basis of salvation in every age is the death of Christ; the requirement for salvation in every age is faith; the object of faith in every age is God; the content of faith changes in the various dispensations. (Dispensationalism Today. Chicago: Moody Bible Institute, 1965; 121)

My thoughts. Hope that helps!

God bless

Dispensationalism is definitely a strong attempt to answer these types of questions as well. Thanks Jaq for weighing in with those explanations.

Thanks both for the thoughtful posts. I'm getting a general sense of yes, Jesus could be accepted during his lifetime, albeit there may be technical differences amongst Christians.

I'm not saying it isn't a valuable question or that the Scripture doesn't have more to say on it that that.

Likewise I realise it is strictly an irrelevant question given the crucifiction has now happened. It's just something I've often wondered about for no particular reason.

Cyclist wrote:Thanks both for the thoughtful posts. I'm getting a general sense of yes, Jesus could be accepted during his lifetime, albeit there may be technical differences amongst Christians.

I'm not saying it isn't a valuable question or that the Scripture doesn't have more to say on it that that.

Likewise I realise it is strictly an irrelevant question given the crucifiction has now happened. It's just something I've often wondered about for no particular reason.

To know how God works is ultimately a window to know God. It's a valuable question if it moves us to better understand who God is and how He works in us and through us today.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Dispensationalism is definitely a strong attempt to answer these types of questions as well.

Aha! A keyword! (I struggled to home in on my specific question when I tried searching myself which is why I ended up posting it here).

I got this from wikipedia's (always to be taken with a pinch of salt, I know) dispensationalism page:

"Before the cross man was saved on the basis of Christ's atoning sacrifice to come, through believing the revelation thus far given him. Since the cross man has been saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom revelation and redemption are consummated."

Cyclist wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Dispensationalism is definitely a strong attempt to answer these types of questions as well.

Aha! A keyword! (I struggled to home in on my specific question when I tried searching myself which is why I ended up posting it here).

I got this from wikipedia's (always to be taken with a pinch of salt, I know) dispensationalism page:

"Before the cross man was saved on the basis of Christ's atoning sacrifice to come, through believing the revelation thus far given him. Since the cross man has been saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom revelation and redemption are consummated."

And to check out the heroes of faith in Hebrews chapter 11 might also give you some better clarity.
I Hope this helps.

If you believe Dan Browns books - which is obviously true scholarship then you will think that the Council of Nicene decided that Jesus was divine. This is untrue - The Council of Nicene was brought about to establish once and for the the nature of Jesus's Divinity not whether or not he was actually divine. Jesus was worshipped as God right from the offset. You only have to read the New Testament to realise that. Look at Pauls letters, look at Acts - read the Bible.

Silvertusk.

nobible wrote:Most Christians believe Jesus was the son of God and/or God, so they would say yes..

Yes to his birth 'or' his death being the source of salvation?

Interesting to hear the perspective of a self-defined 'cultural Christian', too. Did Jesus' sacrifice have any functional or symbolic purpose in your view?

Keep in mind that many, if not most, early Christians believed this as well until the Church started clamping down on them and persecuting them as heretics (possibly not unlike here).

Sorry, I don't get where you mean by "here".

Cyclist, I'm not sure you can really separate the two with regards to salvation

Christ's death was the required atonement for sins. The penalty for sin being death. But Christ dying but not rising from death means nothing of HIs power over sin. His resurrection (praise God!) conquers death and sin for us.

But Christ's resurrection conquered death. Sin, the penalties of sin, no longer has it's control over those who Christ redeems.

And Christ's redemption includes both His death and resurrection.

zoegirl wrote:Cyclist, I'm not sure you can really separate the two with regards to salvation

Sure. I think I better expressed by question in this post:

Cyclist wrote:I can see that the two can't be separated. I guess I'm asking a 'when' question. Before Jesus people couldn't accept him as their saviour, and since Jesus everyone and anyone can. But I'm unlcear whether Christians believe people could accept Jesus as their personal saviour during his lifetime but before the crucifiction.

source

Do you have any thoughts on that specific issue?

whoops!!

Sorry, my bad, should have read more clearly and thoroughly.

I think that scripture shows that the faith of a redemmer even before Christ's incarnation allowed for redemption. "Abraham was saved through faith"

I suppose that since CHrist's existed before the incarnation, it certainly follows logically that redemption is not bound by temporal limitations.

I don't think that scripture teaches soul sleep. I don't think that we need to try to provide convoluted ideas. But I will willingly admit I am no expert in this area.