Evidence for God from Science

For a while I have been trying to study, in honesty haven't had a lot of time, Ezekiel 38-39 and how it falls into place in coralition to the tribulation.
As I watch world events fall into place for it to come to pass, I hope soon, I can't put my finger on if it will be before the Anti-Christ comes to power, before people realize it is him, or after.

I was looking at Revelation 20 where it mentions Magog and Gog, and I'm thinking if this is where it really fits in. I would love to here and discuss any thoughts that anybody has about this.

Paul Tanner holds the view you are suggesting (see the 1996 issue of The Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, "Rethinking the Invasion of God and Magog"). In general, here's my suggestions:

1. "Rosh" should be translated "prince" as in the NIV. It has no etymological connection with Russia. Nor do the cities of Tubal and Meshech have any linguistic connection with Moscow or Tubal with Tobolsk. That's all just rather silly. If you go back to Genesis 10, you see where all the names actually come from.

2. The phrase for the "far north" can refer to the direction of the attack, not the land of the attacking country.

I take the attacking land to be the Turkey/North Iraq-ish area. Iran and other nations will be associated with this.

As far as the timing goes, I don't think that it is at the end of the Millennium. If you compare each battle, line for line, you'll see there are several differences (but note that Tanner does take that position). It seems better to me that it will take place immediately before the antiChrist comes to power. In fact, it may well be the key event that helps bring him to power . . . a charismatic leader steps on the world stage, offers Israel a peace treaty so that such a war doesn't happen again, etc.

Will this happen, then, before or after the rapture? Either is possible. The only thing we cannot say is that it MUST happen before the rapture, or we deny that Jesus could return at any second. Most likely, it will happen very soon afterwards, but that's all speculation.

(see the 1996 issue of The Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, "Rethinking the Invasion of God and Magog").

That is interesting, but 12 year old information is a bit outdated. Especially with current world events that are unraveling all around us.

1. "Rosh" should be translated "prince" as in the NIV. It has no etymological connection with Russia. Nor do the cities of Tubal and Meshech have any linguistic connection with Moscow or Tubal with Tobolsk. That's all just rather silly. If you go back to Genesis 10, you see where all the names actually come from.

Actually, the Moschi are a warlike race in the mountainous region between Armenia, Iberia, and Colchis, associated with Tubal.
Moscow and Tobolsk may dervive their names from Meshech and Tubal. Magog was Gog's original kingdom and he aquired Meshech and Tubal and became their cheif prince. The Scythian (Tauri and the Araxes were called Rhos, from where Russia derived it's name.)
The Scythian empire did reach throughout all of Turkey and up into the Southern part of what we now know as Russia. Tubal brought slaves and copper vesels to the Phoenician markets and nations to the north, who had as their prince Gog.

As far as the timing goes, I don't think that it is at the end of the Millennium.

After further reading and studying, I agree.

It seems better to me that it will take place immediately before the antiChrist comes to power. In fact, it may well be the key event that helps bring him to power . . . a charismatic leader steps on the world stage, offers Israel a peace treaty so that such a war doesn't happen again, etc.

Again, I agree with you here. There has to be something that happens that will "bring out" the anti-christ, to bring peace amongst all the chaos.

I do feel that, with Russia having it's perverbial and literal hand within the Middle East, that they would be involved. They have constructed most of the nuclear power plants in Iran. They sell arms to ALL of Irael's neighbouring countries. That and Israel is practicing pre-emptive attacks on Iranian nuclear plants.

Most likely, it will happen very soon afterwards, but that's all speculation.

Not so sure on this, but then again I'm a mid-triber Paul says that it won't happen until the man of "lawlessness is revealed." But that too is speculation. Hopefulness.

12 year old information is outdated? Not in theological/philosophical discussions. I guess we should just throw out Kant, Hume, Descarte, Aristotle, Clement, Ignatius, and everyone else who dealt with issues in the humanities years ago?



Read the article. He thoroughly debunks the the linguistic connection. And rethink your mid-trib position. The Bible teaches pre-trib.

And rethink your mid-trib position. The Bible teaches pre-trib.

Biblical backing pleases.

If I am wrong, I will ask Jesus to introduce us so I can tell you I'm sorry for being an idiot about it, yet thankful to serve Jesus with you for eternity.

Read the article. He thoroughly debunks the the linguistic connection.

You got a link for that? If so, I promise to read it.

I guess we should just throw out Kant, Hume, Descarte, Aristotle, Clement, Ignatius, and everyone else who dealt with issues in the humanities years ago?

(From the word humanities in Wikopedia)

Religion

The compass in this 13th century manuscript is a symbol of God's act of creation.Most historians trace the beginnings of religious belief to the Neolithic Period. Most religious belief during this time period consisted of worship of a Mother Goddess, a Sky Father, and also worship of the Sun and the Moon as deities. (see also Sun worship)
New philosophies and religions arose in both east and west, particularly around the 6th century BC. Over time, a great variety of religions developed around the world, with Hinduism and Buddhism in India, Zoroastrianism in Persia being some of the earliest major faiths. In the east, three schools of thought were to dominate Chinese thinking until the modern day. These were Taoism, Legalism, and Confucianism. The Confucian tradition, which would attain predominance, looked not to the force of law, but to the power and example of tradition for political morality. In the west, the Greek philosophical tradition, represented by the works of Plato and Aristotle, was diffused throughout Europe and the Middle East by the conquests of Alexander of Macedon in the 4th century BC.

Abrahamic religions are those religions deriving from a common ancient Semitic tradition and traced by their adherents to Abraham (circa 1900 BCE), a patriarch whose life is narrated in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, and as a prophet in the Quran and also called a prophet in Genesis 20:7. This forms a large group of related largely monotheistic religions, generally held to include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam comprises about half of the world's religious adherents.

So yes, I will take those types of lessons from the Bible, not those whom you have mentioned. Sorry.

obsolete wrote:Biblical backing pleases.

If I am wrong, I will ask Jesus to introduce us so I can tell you I'm sorry for being an idiot about it, yet thankful to serve Jesus with you for eternity.

No thanks. I'm not up for that kind of debate today. Suffice it to say I hold that the HS is the "one who holds back." The comment was mostly in jest, anyway.

I'm not sure what your wikipedia quote has anything to do with anything, though? And as far as the article goes, I'll see if I can dig it up for you. I have access to it here, but that's because I work at a university. Maybe I'll photocopy it and make it available as an attachment. Hmmm . . .

No thanks. I'm not up for that kind of debate today. Suffice it to say I hold that the HS is the "one who holds back." The comment was mostly in jest, anyway.

That's quit all right. What does HS mean anyways?

I've found that both mid and pre trib has some digging to do to prove either way. I just know that Jesus IS coming back and only the Father knows when. Whether it be before what Ezekiel 38-39 says or after He knows. Growing up I was taught heavely about the no doom or gloom pre trib. Escapist theory. The Bible says we will not suffer under God's wrath, yet Romans says that the wrath of God is being shown now, but we will be persecuted.

I'm not sure what your wikipedia quote has anything to do with anything, though?

You had mentioned humanities. This is just one of the areas, religion, that humanities deals with. If you read it you may know more of why I posted it.

Back to the OP, Ezekiel mentions in chapter 39 those who live in the "ilses" or, for the NIV, "distant coastlands". What is the take on this?

What does HS mean anyways?

Holy Spirit. And I was referring to 2 Thess 2:6.

I've found that both mid and pre trib has some digging to do to prove either way. I just know that Jesus IS coming back and only the Father knows when. Whether it be before what Ezekiel 38-39 says or after He knows. Growing up I was taught heavely about the no doom or gloom pre trib. Escapist theory. The Bible says we will not suffer under God's wrath, yet Romans says that the wrath of God is being shown now, but we will be persecuted.

And the important thing is that Jesus is coming back. There are a lot bigger issues to debate than pre- or mid-trib. The reason I hold to pre-trib relates to my entire view of Scripture, especially as it relates to the difference in God's purpose for Israel and for the Church. But it doesn't really matter all that much.

You had mentioned humanities. This is just one of the areas, religion, that humanities deals with. If you read it you may know more of why I posted it.

I read it. I just don't know what it had to do with my point. You said you weren't interested in 12 year old information. I can understand that if we were talking about one of the hard sciences. But the passage of time doesn't make anyone's argument for a particular interpretation less valid. In this sense, arguments are timeless. They are either right or wrong, regardless of how long ago that they were written.

Oh, btw, I found that article and created a link:

EDIT: NEW LINK (the old one broke)
http://youranywhere.com:80/1/1/a?a=dF&p ... ApQZOAAsOW

Back to the OP, Ezekiel mentions in chapter 39 those who live in the "ilses" or, for the NIV, "distant coastlands". What is the take on this?

It just shows how far the destruction will go. Let me quote from Charles Feinberg's The Prophecy of Ezekiel: The Glory of the Lord (Chicago: Moody Press, 1969), page 229, with whom I am in complete agreement.

Feinberg wrote:The isles referred to are the coastland and islands of the Mediterranean. Thought the judgment on the enemies will occur in Israel, the catastrophe will extend far out to the ends of the earth to accomplish the purpose of God. Once ore the Lord will relate His purpose in Israel to that for all the world.

That is interesting. I downloaded that article you posted yesterday before my internet went down. I promise to read it when I have a day off from work.

I request you get a copy of Rosenberg's "Epicenter". Read chapter 7. You'll see why.

As far as the isles, Gomer's decendants are believed to have settled in the British isles and the Celts are believed to be their decendents. Gomer is mentioned in that part of Ezekiel.

Going back to Russia, though, did you catch the news on Fox and CNN about Russia invading Georgia, just north of Turkey? They moved in tanks and bombers. The Russian army is on the move South.