Evidence for God from Science

Hi,

I am new to the board so I would like to say hello to everyone. My dilemma is I don't really know if I have true faith or if I am agnostic. Some times when I reflect on Jesus Christ it all seems perfectly reasonable and and that He is the answer to all my questions and searching. At other times, I feel it is all a delusion and there was no Jesus Christ that was resurrected, but just a human being whose story became larger than life, like a myth. I want it to be true, of course, but is that enough? Should I feel conviction that what I profess to believe is the truth? How can I tell? I would appreciate some advice. Tabitha

Do you have any reasons for believing that Jesus rose from the dead? A lot of people believe it--and they really do, don't get me wrong--because they've been taught it. But outside of hard facts, the idea can sound like a Santa Claus thing if you don't take the time to really study it.

Without any defense, consider the following facts--facts are which pretty much agreed on by N.T. scholarship, both liberal and conservative:

1. Jesus Christ was crucified by Pontius Pilate and buried about AD 30.
2. His tomb was found empty three days later.
3. His disciples actually believed that they had seen Him raised from the dead.

Again, note that these facts are as historical as anything else you could imagine, from George Washington being the first president of the US to Julius Caesar being killed by Brutus. What people disagree on is this: what do these facts MEAN?

I would submit to you that the only logical conclusion is that He really was raised from the dead. Every other alternative explanation I've ever heard simply does not take into account all of these facts, or they make invalid assumptions about the background against which each of these are found.

So, the way I see it, you just have to answer this question: if I am to be intellectually honest, what do I do with the resurrection of Jesus? Can I ignore the evidence and maintain disbelief, or do I follow the evidence and affirm this as a historical reality? If the latter, you will find an unshakable foundation for your Christian faith.

God bless

Ravi Zacharias explains that there are two types of agnostics: "hard-boiled" ("I don't know and you CANNOT know") and "soft-boiled" ("I don't know but one CAN know"). You sound like a "soft-boiled" agnostic.

The Bible encourages us to ask questions, examine and explore. Your doubts are perfectly reasonable and understandable.
Part of the beauty and wonderment of God is that He gives us enough evidence of His existence and what is true, yet leaves enough a mystery so we may turn to Him in faith.

As C.S. Lewis stated, if Jesus is who He claimed to be, He is either a lunatic, a liar or He is telling the truth.
Please re-read the above comment.
I also suggest you pray and ask God to help you.

Also, please feel free to post any questions you have.
Thanks.

I want to thank both of you for your prompt response to my inquiry. To address a few of your questions and concerns, I really do not have a problem with the fact of the historical Jesus. That is the least of my problems. Also, I do think it is fair to say I am a "soft boiled" agnostic, though I prefer to think of myself as a spiritually weak Christian. Can one be both?

I will attempt to explain my main issues with the gospel, most specifically the Resurrection. First I will state what I believe. I believe that Something Happened. Something very unusual or strange was witnessed by the friends and followers of Jesus Christ. Something that could possibly have been supernatural. Something that, unfortunately, could be explained with some other possible explanations and still be plausbile. If one has to choose between a supernatural explanation and a rational one, why would one choose the supernatural one unless one was there as a witness? You have to have been there, right? So we have witnesses reporting a supernatural event. But it didn't start there, of course. Jesus has many supernatural events attributed to Him during His life. So if you are in for a inch, you are in for a mile.

One of my issues would be the ancient world itself, the world that Jesus lived in and the witnesses wrote about. A world where the belief in a god/man would have been a rational idea. Also a world where many natural phenomena were attributed to magical/supernatural causes. But what gives me pause is that it is a historical human being who is claiming to be a god/man. A little harder to dismiss than an idea or a myth. Also, I find Jesus Himself very hard to dismiss, His teachings and the apparent conviction with which He lived His life. The parables, especially, have a haunting quality that stays with you. It is as if He were speaking to the whole world and me alone, in a personal audience. He seems to speak to the secret heart.

The other issue is that I wish it to be true. I want it to be true. How then can I make a rational decision? I wonder how much of my own fears play into my intellectual search and my spiritual quest. What really matters is if the gospels really do witness to the Truth, not just my subjective decision of whether it is true. So wouldn't I have to have been there? How can anyone absolutely know the truth if one is not subjected to the reality of the supernatural experience? I wonder if I am allowed to pray for a sign of some sort? Is that allowed? Or is it purely by faith alone that I come to know what is unknowable on any other level? I can only hope for contact from the Holy Spirit, which I am open too. I find no other way to bridgethe gap of this rational/irrational enigma. Please pray for me. Tabitha

Tabitha..first off, I seem to sense a note of desperation in your writings. Relax. There is no time limit on coming to understand Jesus Christ, the scriptures, miracles, etc. You seem to have many questions, coming quickly, and it's best to take one question at a time.
"Wishing" something to be true does not make it so. The more of an open mind you have, the more the truth will be revealed to you. The truth is unchangeable and knowable. To a rational mind, the thought of someone coming back from the dead (especially such a horrific one as Christ experienced) is hard to accept. Some people simply believe it because it's in the bible, others totally dismiss it as sheer folly. Still others, such as myself, want to question and examine it to see if it is true.
I was witnessing to my late father-in-law, an affirmed atheist, who hit me with about 12 questions regarding Jesus as God. I explained that if he did not accept the God of Genesis 1:1, then he could not possibly understand Jesus Christ. In his case, we had to begin there. But for you, the question remains: was Jesus a liar, a lunatic or who He claimed to be?
The home page, here, is an excellent resource to help with many questions.
I regards to the resurrection, Gary Habermas PhD. has done serious, extensive study solely on the resurrection. Dr. Habermas has lectured, debated and written many books on the subject and is widely respected. You may listen to a few of his presentations at my You Tube site, http://www.youtube.com/rodyshusband. Click on playlists and go to Gary Habermas.
I will pray that God shows Himself to you and blesses you as you find answers to your questions.

I admit I am in the midst of a spiritual crisis, or something of that nature. I am a product of too much "book" knowledge and too much education, I guess. Alas, I would prefer the faith of a child or a simpleton. (No offense to simpleton's) I fear I will never experience that which is described as a "born again" experience. I have met many people in my life who have had this, and it seems a wondrous event, and I envy it.

I have prayed, (though only recently), and studied the New Testament in part, especially the Gospel of John. TGOJ is a beautiful piece of literature, if nothing else. I certainly cannot deflect the logic of the formula as stated: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word of with God...." There is something absolutely sophisticated in the theology, also in Paul's epistle to the Roman's. There is no arguing that great minds were at work here.

But then there is the Old Testament. My problem with that book is that it has no grand logic or formula. The theme appears to be God's justice vs His Chosen' people's rebellion against God and His commandment's. Yet there are parts of the narrative that defy logic and reason, especially for a Righteous God. I believe anyone who had read the OT will know what I am talking about. It just doesn't seem to make coherent sense.

Yet this is supposedly theWord of God. Aside from talking donkey's and Job's conversation with God, which I choose not to take literally, (am I supposed to?) the book in general does not compare with the New Testament and it's brilliant theological assertions and also the Man Himself, Jesus, whose life and teachings are so beautifully coherent that it almost seems to defy reason NOT to believe in HIm. But the rest just doesn't add up. I would like to rip out the OT from my Bible and just focus on the NT. Can I do this? But remember, Jesus Himself quoted from the book. Do I have to believe this thing literally? I feel like I have to put my rational brain on hold here. Yes, the OT presents a personal barrier to my buying the whole ball of wax, so to speak.

Anyway, I do not mean to discourage anyone on this board who is where I am not. I am grateful I have a place to vent and speak my mind. I hope to hear from believers who have made sense of the above. I await a thunderbolt from above....

There are those who come to salvation through a sudden revelation ("thunderbolt") and have an emotional experience. I know of many people who are waiting for this to happen, as they continue to examine God and the scriptures. It may or may not happen to you. Please do not depend on an emotional experience to validate your salvation.
The story of God and mankind and salvation is amazingly simple and easy to understand. I can relate to your concerns of being "over educated"...our minds become full of "...then how come...", questions that demand clarification, and we lose sight of the simplicity. You can use your education and desire for knowledge to find the truth, or it can bog you down .

If the OT causes you problems, continue to read the NT. John is a great place to start, as you have already done.
In time, you can begin to study the OT. Remember, you have plenty of time.

I am not an expert on OT, so I cannot answer your questions. I, too, have had problems with certain portions and "stories" from the OT...this is why one has to read the OT in contrast to the entire book. When I come across something that I don't understand, I study as much as I can, use as many credible resources as I can and always come to a reasonable conclusion. A good study bible, which explains the chapters and verses, can help.

Besides us, do you have a good support system to help you? A sound church/pastor? Fellowship with other strong Christians?

I have no pastor at this time that I would feel comfortable confiding in. I would certainly ask for advice and cousel from a pastor, but I would not view a pastor as a final authorrity on what to believe. That is just how I am and how I think. My search is not for an authority figure or a charismatic preacher type person, though I have the highest respect for those who preach the word of God. I just have to know if it is Truth, not just their interpretation of truth. So there, I have some high standards. Fortunately Jesus Christ meets those standards.

In the midst of my "spiritual crisis" I decided to participate in the RICA program at my local Catholic Church. For those who don't know, that is the Rite of Christian Initiation. It was an eye opening experience. I had attended Mass with my mother-in-law for many weeks, and I found the Mass to be beautiful and mysterious. I wanted to learn more. My m-i-l is a cradle Catholic who questions nothing about her church. I mean no criticism to Catholics in general, that is just what I observed about her. She just does not have a questioning nature, which I guess is fine for her, as it works. I was fascinated with her absolute mindset and decided to find out more. Unfortunately, I found out a little more than I bargained for.

I remember one standout moment at one of my RICA meetings, and it was towards the end of the program. The priest was explaining the importance of attendance at Mass, and he used as an example the drawing of a concentric circle. He actually had a circle, that looked like a dartboard, up on the blackboard in front of him. He explained that those in the center of the circle were the true faithful, who always participated in Mass. The next largest circle was for those who participated most of the time, except for instances of illness, etc. They were still golden. As he approached the outer edge of the circle, I was feeling very uncomfortable. I was identifying with the largest circle, the one on the perimeter, as I felt that is where I probably would end up if I continued in the Catholic faith. The priest indicated that those on the outer edge were in danger of their mortal souls. It was quite chilling. I went home feeling very dejected, and no closer to the Truth. But I still loved participating in the Mass, so I became baptized in the faith, though I should not have.

Now, as it stands, I rarely go to Mass. I am back where I started, though I now know more about the Catholic Church, more actually than I wish to know. My husband is Catholic but does not go to Mass at all. My mother-in-law is still waiting for my son's first communion and religious education to begin. Just as I continue to wait for the spiritual revelation that will lead me to peace. BTW, I am a big fan of St. Francis of Assisi, probably the best example one has of following in the Master's footsteps. Anyways, that is how it stands now, I try to pray and read my Bible, which is a MacArthur study bible. I recommend it highly, though my brother claims it is pure fundamentalist interpretation. I don't really give a damn, per se, as I will listen to anyone's point of view if they make sense to me. The only person I discuss spiritual matters with is my younger brother, who is now a borderline atheist. Though I totally reject Atheism, I find nothing wrong with a good intellectual debate

I would like to say that I am tremendously enjoying this website and the numerous forums that are offered. I am guessing that just about every issue or question I could have is being addressed here. I am so curious about what other Christians have to say, and what they have to offer in the way of insight and experience. I have already spent many hours of my free time scanning the information on the site, and it has helped me tremendously. I hope to participate in all the forums and to learn what other's views are. Tabitha

tabitha wrote:I have no pastor at this time that I would feel comfortable confiding in. I would certainly ask for advice and cousel from a pastor, but I would not view a pastor as a final authorrity on what to believe. That is just how I am and how I think. My search is not for an authority figure or a charismatic preacher type person, though I have the highest respect for those who preach the word of God. I just have to know if it is Truth, not just their interpretation of truth. So there, I have some high standards. Fortunately Jesus Christ meets those standards.

But you need to find those that have studied the scriptured and can answer those questions you have concerning the unity between the Old and New Testament. saying that you would not view them as an authority and yet they have the background in the biblical studies seems rather defeating and almost as if you want to delay finding the answers.

tabitha wrote:But then there is the Old Testament. My problem with that book is that it has no grand logic or formula. The theme appears to be God's justice vs His Chosen' people's rebellion against God and His commandment's. Yet there are parts of the narrative that defy logic and reason, especially for a Righteous God. I believe anyone who had read the OT will know what I am talking about. It just doesn't seem to make coherent sense.

I have no formal training but I have leanred to love the Old testament and to see the logic in it. I have had multiple bible study and sunday school teachers as well of pastors who have taught the connections between the Old testamnet.

Rest assured there is beauty and grace int he Old testament, seen throughout the many many times God delivered His people. Even in Genesis there is a foreshadowing of the Redeemer. Throughout the patriarchal books you see the establishment of the covenant between God and Abraham, restablishing the requirement of a sacrifice for sins. This understanding of a blood sacrifice from a perfect lamb, a passover from the blood of the lamb, the "scapegoat", all comes to a perfect cliimax in the New testament. God chose Abraham and his descendants to show HIS glory, to be an example to other nations. God established the covenant with Abraham to show He is a promise-keeper. He keeps His promises to Isaac and Sarah, Jacob and Joseph, revealing that His timing is perfect. God established the law through Moses to show that we cannot fulfill the law. We cannot be righteous and we need a redeemer. Throughout Joshua God shows that He delivers His people and Judges shows His mercy (as strange as it seems) as His people stray from Him over and over and God continues to deliver them over and over. God is the one who is faithful to His people to deliver them. Throughout the Kings, throughout Israel straying, God provides.


I would encourgae you to try different churches. You need to find one who is willing to answer your questions. (but you need to be willing to listen)

Saying that you don't want saomeone's interpretation of truth or to say that you are not looking for someone to be an authority figure is not a good reason for not seeking the answers. You must investigate and question. These are the people who have studied the language, the history, the poetry of the scripture. Just as any other authority in academia, pastors have had to pass tests, write papers, and have gained the authority in their area of study.

tabitha wrote: In the midst of my "spiritual crisis" I decided to participate in the RICA program at my local Catholic Church. For those who don't know, that is the Rite of Christian Initiation. It was an eye opening experience. I had attended Mass with my mother-in-law for many weeks, and I found the Mass to be beautiful and mysterious. I wanted to learn more. My m-i-l is a cradle Catholic who questions nothing about her church. I mean no criticism to Catholics in general, that is just what I observed about her. She just does not have a questioning nature, which I guess is fine for her, as it works. I was fascinated with her absolute mindset and decided to find out more. Unfortunately, I found out a little more than I bargained for.

I remember one standout moment at one of my RICA meetings, and it was towards the end of the program. The priest was explaining the importance of attendance at Mass, and he used as an example the drawing of a concentric circle. He actually had a circle, that looked like a dart board, up on the blackboard in front of him. He explained that that those in the center of the circle were the true faithful, who always participated in Mass. The next largest circle was for those who participated most of the time, except for instances of illness, etc. They were still golden. As he approached the outer edge of the circle, I was feeling very uncomfortable. I was identifying with the largest circle, the one on the perimeter, as I felt that is where I probably would end up if I continued in the Catholic faith. The priest indicated that those on the outer edge were in danger of their mortal souls. It was quite chilling. I went home feeling very dejected, and no closer to the Truth. But I still loved participating in the Mass, so I became baptized in the faith, though I should not have.

Now, as it stands, I rarely go to Mass. I am back where I started, though I now know more about the Catholic Church, more actually than I wish to know. My husband is Catholic but does not go to Mass at all. My mother-in-law is still waiting for my son's first communion and religious education to begin. Just as I continue to wait for the spiritual revelation that will lead me to peace. BTW, I am a big fan of St. Francis of Assisi, probably the best example one has of following in the Master's footsteps. Anyways, that is how it stands now, I try to pray and read my Bible, which is a MacArthur study bible. I recommend it highly, though my brother claims it is pure fundamentalist interpretation. I don't really give a damn, per se, as I will listen to anyone's point of view if they make sense to me. The only person I discuss spiritual matters with is my younger brother, who is now a borderline atheist. Though I totally reject Atheism, I find nothing wrong with a good intellectual debate

it sounds though to me as if you have not had the opportunity to really examine Biblical studies. Many of your questions stems from not really examining the Bible from good biblical scholars. Byblos, a moderator here, can answer many of your questions about the Catholic faith. I wouldn't feel comfortable answering specifically about Catholicism, although anyone who makes attending church a part of some "avoid hell" list is far from understanding the role of Christ. Attending church has NOTHING to do with our being justified in Christ. Christ redeems us.

That said, there is MUCH to gain from a church that offers good spiritual food. YOu grow spiritually, develop relationships, have true felloship, and it helps in our sacntification. Just as any good plant grows and flourishes from good soil, a good church that teaches solid biblical truths allows us to flourish.

As much as I appreciate good intellectual debate, the fact that you only discuss spiritual matters with an atheist concerns me. It essentially says that you are not getting fed spiritually. i'm not saying that reading the Bible doesn't feed you, but seeking answers from someone who has more Biblical knowledge can only help.

tabitha wrote: I would like to say that I am tremendously enjoying this website and the numerous forums that are offered. I am guessing that just about every issue or question I could have is being addressed here. I am so curious about what other Christians have to say, and what they have to offer in the way of insight and experience. I have already spent many hours of my free time scanning the information on the site, and it has helped me tremendously. I hope to participate in all the forums and to learn what other's views are. Tabitha

I will be praying for you....keeo asking questions!!

Out of curiosity, what apologetics have you read? Mere Christianity? What biblical studies books have you read?

I totally agree with zoegirl.
I understand your difficulty with churches and pastors; it has taken me several years to find a church that does not consider being "seeker friendly" it's only priority. The pastor of my church is very young (it's his first church), has a degree in theology from an accredited university, admits he "does not know everything" and is capable of teaching the gospel. If I have a question he does not have an answer to, he will direct me to good resources.
I cannot stress the importance of a good study bible, a bible that provides historical background, purpose and relevance, an understanding of the author, and verse by verse clarification with concordance.

I am so glad to hear that many of your questions are being answered through this website.
As each question is answered and you come to a new understanding, your walk with God continues to advance.
Please stay in touch with all of us here and continue to ask questions!

I think you guys are dead on, of course. But I have had no luck with pastors. I am sure if I could meet a pastor I could trust, I would not feel so independent and alone.

Years ago, I was under the influence of a very charismatic type Baptist pastor, but something was lost along the way. I looked to him instead of to Him, if you know what I mean. I don't want that to happen again. I have to be able to be absolutely honest with a pastor when I discuss questions of belief, not say what they want to hear. I certainly do not want to be ridiculed or lectured to. I don't want to be seen as not really a Christian, either. Even though I have many, many doubts, at this juncture of time I don't feel comfortable sharing them with anyone but my anonymous friends in the forum. I hate to be judged, as we all do.

To answer Zoe's question, I have read C.S. Lewis, also John Polkinghorn, (a scientist and Anglican pastor) also lots of books by J.D. Crossan. If you are familiar with Crossan and you are a Christian, you would probably not approve of my reading him at all. The thing is, he has a brilliant mind, and I am drawn to his ideas like a moth to a flame. He does not believe the Resurrection was an historic event, and I tend not to agree with him, but still I admire his research and how he has integrated psychology, anthropology, archeology, sociology,theology, etc, into his theories. I like to look at all angles before making a decison, and I guess he does too.

Anyway, thank-you guys for your support. I am sure I will find a church and pastor sometime soon as I seem to be leading in the direction. God Bless, Tabitha

I am sorry that your experiences have led you to dismiss further inquiry. I would caution you to not let those experiences color your view of pastors. I agree with you that an intellectual beackgroundis attractive. I definitely am more swayed by meatier sermons and love the sermons that make connections throughout scripture.

I would encourage you to keep asking questons. A good pastor would not dismiss you nor attempt to sway you from your inquiry. I have had tremendous good fortune with the many Presbyterian ministers, Episcopal ministers, and the few non-denominational pastors of the churches I have attended. It is amazing the people the Lord have called to ministry and their minds and hearts for God.

To be honest most of the pastors I know would be absolutely thrilled to answer questions.

May I recommend checcking out the resources on the main site? There is a page dedicated to good readings. I lose instant respect of any scholar who dismisses the historical accuracy of the resurrection, so yes, I would probably disapprove of him, regardless of his brilliance. Paul addresses this in his letters how essential the resurrection is, not to mention the wealth of evidence for it.

I have loved reading the following authors:
John Piper (oyu can check out his website by googling his name and listen to his sermons online)
Josh McDowell
C.S. Lewis
Packard
Charles Spurgeon (but more for his devotionals)

(writing this from bed, so forgetting others, will have to get more on the list.)

Anyway, hope you continue in your search.

Zoe, it all comes down the the Resurrection for me. No pastor would play the devil's advocate with me that there was none. They would only convince me that there was. That is why I have to research in other directions. That is why I am drawn to the Crossan books. My brain does not allow me to believe anything until I examine all the angles. How can anyone know the Truth unless they have done so? If Jesus Christ is the Truth, as He state, then my search should lead back to HIm.

Actually, that is what is happening, but not without great moments of doubt. I want so much to have a "rational" belief that can be "proved". What I don't want is to have to depend on faith. But that is what it seems to come down to. Me of little faith trying to understand what faith is and why it is required. I would have to say that if I had to believe that anyone in human history was resurrected, it was indeed HIm. I am praying about this. I do NOT have a firm belief in the Resurrection, and I have read many books on the subject besides the gospels. I have moments of belief but nothing that stays. LIke I state in my first post, sometimes I feel it was not Resurrection but Something Else. But what? Yet I do not share this with anyone, I am quite ashamed I don't believe in Him the way I should. It is comparable to accusing someone of lying then finding out (when?) that it was the truth all along. BTW, the gospels were written decades after the event, or so I have read. They were not composed at the scene, yet they read like eye witness accounts.

Strange as it may seem, my moments of belief tend to be when I reflect on His words and actions as witnessed by the gospel writers, not the passion narrative itself. I have found nothing else to compare in human literature to HIs incredible, absolute wisdom of human nature and what human beings really need, which is to know that God loves them, that there is a Loving Father, that there is a purpose to every life and a home to return to when life is over. Utter simplicity and utter conviction from this God/Man Jesus Christ. The absolute purpose with which He lead his life which lead to His death. So I have an intuition it is true, but the Truth I sense is counterintuitve to the reality I live. Unfortunately, in our present reality there is no Resurrection, and death is the end. So that is how it stands. I guess I want someone or Someone to convince me it is true. I am still researching on this board and I am so impressed with the knowledge and depth of understanding from our board members. I am sure I am being lead in the right direction. God Bless, Tabitha

I hear you.

But there are grat scholars WHO HAVE examined and found the evidece. Don't just read those that discredit the resurrecvtion.

Remebered another one...Lee Strobel: A case for faith and A case for Christ

Josh McDwell;s Evidence that Demands a Verdict goes through an incrdib;e mountain of evidence for Christ.

And of course, Mere Chistianity.

Did you knwo that all three authors started out to disprove Christianity?

Tabitha--one line you said in your first reply stuck out to me the most. In discussing the unusualness of the resurrection you said it was . . .

Something that, unfortunately, could be explained with some other possible explanations and still be plausbile.

This is the crux of the matter. Can you provide me even one naturalistic explanation that takes all the evidence into account?