Evidence for God from Science

Cloud of Unknowing — ( Modern Translation by Clifton Wolters)

The Cloud is one of my favorite books. It is often misunderstood and misquoted and reinterpreted to mean things the writer did not intend nor projected into its meaning. The writer was anonymous and a devout orthodox Christian. You can glean this from his writings. It must be understood in that light.

I like how the first chapter begins where he describes 4 stages of the Christian life…

Chapter One:

It seems to me, in my rough and ready way, that there are four states or kinds of Christian Life and these are: Common, Special, Solitary, and Perfect. Three of them may be begun here and ended in this life; the forth, by the grace of God, may be begun here, but it goes on for ever in the bliss of heaven…

These stages do indeed exist and in fact many modern writers write of these in there own vernacular. So what does the reader think these mean?

The second chapter begins in a shocking way and reminds me of the biblical exhortations of examining ourselves to see whether we be in the faith as well as the injunctions of not allowing the flesh to rule over the Spirit.

Chapter Two

Pause for a moment, you wretched weakling, and take stock of yourself. Who are you, and what have you deserved, to be called like this by our Lord? How sluggish and slothful the soul that does not respond to Love's attraction and invitation!

At this stage, wretched man, you must keep an eye on your enemy. You must not think of yourself any holier or better of the worthiness of your calling…

Before we begin looking into these matters — it best to take stock of ourselves and remember to keep an eye on our own selfish pride!

The third chapter begins with a most profound statement that I pray the Church would return too as well as gives hint on how one encounters God in a new and ever growing living relationship.

Chapter Three

Lift up your heart to God with humble love; and mean God himself, and not what you get out of him…

Such is the soul that seeketh after God. In fact the Psalmist cries out in the same manner as the author describes…

Psalms 42:1, “…As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you, O God. 2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?” ESV

That is the cry of those that seek after the Lord and such discover him in ways untold. That is the way of the true Christian - reaching for the Lord with the darts of longing love that pierce the cloud of unknowing between you and God.

These writings are not for the analytical to compare with this or that way or comparative philosophy. This is okay for those wishing to remain in the Common but always remember that Mary chose the best part (Luke 10:38-42)…
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B. W. wrote:Cloud of Unknowing — ( Modern Translation by Clifton Wolters)

The Cloud is one of my favorite books. It is often misunderstood and misquoted and reinterpreted to mean things the writer did not intend nor projected into its meaning. The writer was anonymous and a devout orthodox Christian. You can glean this from his writings. It must be understood in that light.

Yes, his pleading in the introduction may relate to that: "I fear lest a person read only some parts and quickly fall into error. . . . As for worldly gossips, flatterers, the scrupulous, talebearers, busybodies, and the hypercritical, I would just as soon they never laid eyes on the book." lol

I love the prayer at the beginning of the introduction:

O God unto whom all hearts lie open
unto whom desire is eloquent
and from whom no secret thing is hidden;
purify the thoughts of my heart
by the outpouring of your Spirit
that I may love you with a perfect lvoe
and praise you as you deserve. Amen.

I like how the first chapter begins where he describes 4 stages of the Christian life…

Chapter One:

It seems to me, in my rough and ready way, that there are four states or kinds of Christian Life and these are: Common, Special, Solitary, and Perfect. Three of them may be begun here and ended in this life; the forth, by the grace of God, may be begun here, but it goes on for ever in the bliss of heaven…

These stages do indeed exist and in fact many modern writers write of these in there own vernacular. So what does the reader think these mean?

I was not raised a Christian, yet I always felt drawn to Christ. I think all that part of my life was "Common," since, when I became a Christian (knowingly), it was because He drew me close to Him in a powerful way ("Special"). And lots of things happened after that. However - and this is awful - I feel I went back to "Common" by the choices I made. . . . but I'm being very personal.

The second chapter begins in a shocking way and reminds me of the biblical exhortations of examining ourselves to see whether we be in the faith as well as the injunctions of not allowing the flesh to rule over the Spirit.

Chapter Two

Pause for a moment, you wretched weakling, and take stock of yourself. Who are you, and what have you deserved, to be called like this by our Lord? How sluggish and slothful the soul that does not respond to Love's attraction and invitation!

At this stage, wretched man, you must keep an eye on your enemy. You must not think of yourself any holier or better of the worthiness of your calling…

Before we begin looking into these matters — it best to take stock of ourselves and remember to keep an eye on our own selfish pride!

I love what he says here, but before he discusses pride: "How can your poor heart be so leaden and spiritless that it is not continually aroused by the attraction of the Lord's love and the sound of his voice?"

The third chapter begins with a most profound statement that I pray the Church would return too as well as gives hint on how one encounters God in a new and ever growing living relationship.

Chapter Three

Lift up your heart to God with humble love; and mean God himself, and not what you get out of him…

Such is the soul that seeketh after God. In fact the Psalmist cries out in the same manner as the author describes…

Psalms 42:1, “…As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you, O God. 2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?” ESV

That is the cry of those that seek after the Lord and such discover him in ways untold. That is the way of the true Christian - reaching for the Lord with the darts of longing love that pierce the cloud of unknowing between you and God.

I assume there are a couple of things people have problems with here. The call to forget everything and everyone else, and the seeking for God in the "darkness." I'm sure a lot of people just lay down the book after reading these things (lol, like the author warned about). But the author says what he means at the beginning of the chapter: "This is what you are to do: lift your heart up to the Lord, with a gentle stirrring of love desiring him for his own sake and not for his gifts. Center all your attention and desire on him and let this be the sole concern of your mind and heart." Yes, shouldn't we be doing this for the true lover of our soul?

These writings are not for the analytical to compare with this or that way or comparative philosophy. This is okay for those wishing to remain in the Common but always remember that Mary chose the best part (Luke 10:38-42)…

So far I have just responded to you, but that's OK. I just ordered the complete works of John of the Cross, and I'd like to get into that too. Well,besides that, I'm working on a summary of Julian's visions, since I have a hard time keeping them straight. I wonder if I should put any of that here?

Yes cslewislover,

By all means - review some of Julian of Norwich's writings!

Here are a few more to add to the list...

Francois Fenelon's -- Spiritual Letters, Christian Counsel, Maxims of the Saints

Bernard of Clairvaux - his letters complied in book - 'Love of God' compliled by James M. Houston

Have you heard of these?

Maybe we should try to explain what these persons goal were as many missunderstand their writings and misuse their writings.

PS = Stay safe! I did not realize the CA fires were so so close to you!
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B. W. wrote:Yes cslewislover,

By all means - review some of Julian of Norwich's writings!

Here are a few more to add to the list...

Francois Fenelon's -- Spiritual Letters, Christian Counsel, Maxims of the Saints

Bernard of Clairvaux - his letters complied in book - 'Love of God' compliled by James M. Houston

Have you heard of these?

Maybe we should try to explain what these persons goal were as many missunderstand their writings and misuse their writings.

PS = Stay safe! I did not realize the CA fires were so so close to you!
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Hi BW, and thanks for the well wishes!

I've heard of Fenelon, and had read snippets about him - that's it so far. And Bernard of Clairvaux - heard of him a lot in Medieval History class, but haven't read his book. There's this book that gives summaries or examples of some of these, called Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians (James G. Lawson, Barbour, 2000), and some of these people are in there. I'm annoyed at myself, though, since not long ago I was reading about this famous man from here, and his wife, who both had all kinds of experiences, and now I don't remember his name! [edit: I think it was Jonathan Edwards] Or even where I was reading that. When I do, I'll mention it. Another neat book that I'd recommend to anyone (that contains some mystics in it), is 131 Christians Everyone Should Know (Holman Reference, 2000).

It might take me a while to get the Julian summaries up, but I'll do it when I can. I suppose I could post some now, and then as I edit my own work, change it out.

As far as the misunderstangings part, you seem to know a lot more about it than me. I haven't paid much attention to the critics myself. So you'd be able to do that much more quickly, I imagine (left to me, I probably wouldn't take the time to research it).

Thanks for contributing!

OK, these are most of the notes I have on Julian so far (not all of the formatting is retained). They may be changed later. This is all taken form John Skinner's translation (which probably is the best in regards to keeping Julian's style): Revelation of Love by Julian of Norwich (Image Books 1996).

Revelation of Love: Summaries of Julian of Norwich's 16 Visions

“Our soul is loved so preciously by him, our highest good, that it is beyond all human understanding.
In truth, no human alive can fathom how much, how sweetly and tenderly, our Maker loves us”
(Skinner p 13).

1. The first showing (vision) is a base for the rest, Julian says: “all the showings that follow are grounded and oned” in this first showing (p 1).
(1) Copious blood came from Jesus' head. Jesus' love for us is close, familiar; He hangs on us like clothes, and he will never take His tender love from us.
(2) Trinity shown and gave her full joy, as it will be in heaven. “This was shown to me in the first and in all other showings: that where Jesus appears, the Blessed Trinity is understood” (p 8 ). This knowledge is enough for any believer to withstand the temptations of the devil.
(3) Mary, Jesus' mother, shown in a physical way. She had marveled that her maker would want to be born of her.
(4) Jesus shows her something small, in her hand, the size of a hazelnut. He told her that it was “all that is made.” Even though it looked like it could fade away, He said that it will last forever, just as we will last forever. Yet we must realize that created things are nothing — that we need to come to God without any created thing between us. “He is our endless home: he only made us for himself; he remakes us by his blessed passion and always keeps us in his blessed love. All this is down to his goodness” (p 11).
(5) God wants us to pray simply--not thinking that we need special skill--but relying on the assurance of His goodness. We may ask for anything we wish. Our Lover desires to have us, and our desire to have Him will not cease. “For now it is his will that we be busy knowing and loving him until that time comes to fulfillment in heaven; which was the meaning and purpose of this teaching of love that was shown . . .” (p 14).
(6) Christ is holy and to be feared, yet he is most “homely” (close and familiar) and courteous. This should fill us with utmost comfort and joy. He wants us to believe this until we are united with him. “But on this earth no one can know this marvelous homeliness, unless our Lord shows it specially, or with some excess of grace it is given inwardly of the Holy Spirit” (p 16). This showing is for all Christians.
(7) (This is sort of an addendum, since Julian basically outlined six points [roughly as I have them above].) The showings are for all believers. We are to love our fellow Christians. “God is all that is good, as to my sight. God has made all things that are made; and God loves all that he has made. So that he who loves all his fellow Christians in general, seeing how God has made them, loves everything it is possible to love. For in humankind that is to be saved is gathered in everything made . . .” (p 19).

2. About Jesus' passion and seeing God.
(1) Julian saw Jesus on the cross, with much blood and scorn, and with much change of color. The discoloration and wretchedness of the skin was to show that Christ was clothed in our own sinful flesh. The Trinity made us in its image, so when we fell, only our maker could redeem us. Julian refers to this as “again making,” where we are made anew, not just bought back.
(2) We are to seek God, yet we are blind to knowing it until He shows us. “And thus I saw him and I sought him; I had him, yet I wanted him. And this is and should be our common working in this life, as I see it” (p 22). We would be so blessed if we only trusted in God:

“There was one time when my understanding was led down into the seabed, and there I saw hills and dales, all green as if the seaweed and gravel were overgrown with moss. Then I understood that if any man or woman were under the deep sea and have sight of God, knowing God as he truly is, with us continually, then they would be safe in body and soul: indeed, they would have more solace and comfort than the whole world could tell. For he wants us to believe that we see him continually, even though it seems to us that we see him very little, since in this way he will make us daily grow in grace. For he will be seen and he will be sought; he will be waited for and he will be trusted” (22).

When we seek God, we please Him. If we see Him clearly, it's because of His own will and timing. It is just as good for the soul to seek Him as it is to see Him.

3. God made everything, but He also works in everything that is done. “I saw God in a point,” Julian writes, because God is in all things (p 25). God does all things and nothing happens by chance. "But what of sin and evil?," pondered Julian. She was not shown our sins, only that Jesus works in us fully and that all things are done well. “While to us some deeds may seem well done, others evil, this is not so in God's sight. For since all things have their ground in God's making, so all that is done belongs to God's doing” (p 26). All has been ordained from the beginning. We must just cease our own judgment about what is going on, trust God, and just enjoy Him.

4. Jesus' body is scourged with much loss of blood. This vision is short, showing Jesus losing so much blood Julian could hardly see the wounds. But the blood kept stopping, in that it did not drip down and down (apparently disappearing). It did, however, descend to “hell” (that is, the waiting place of old) to deliver the Old Testament saints. His blood is most plenteous to save all those who will be saved, and it is the most precious fluid, and it is our birthright.

5. Satan is overcome by Jesus' passion. Satan is sorrowed because he sees all the souls that are saved, and he sees that what he does actually helps us. “ . . . and he can never do so much evil as he wishes, for God has taken his power up into his own hands. For as I see it, there can be no wrath with God, for he is our endless Lord, having regard to his own honor as well as the profit of all who will be saved” (p 30). Our Lord scorns Satan's malice, and he wants us to do the same; at this Julian greatly laughed, and wants us to laugh along with her.

6. The Lord thanks his servants in heaven. He showers them with love and gladness in his own house; to see the Godhead merry, face to face, fills heaven with joy. There are three degrees of bliss for souls who served God in any way. One, thankfulness from God to each one that is so full that it doesn't compare to the total pain and suffering here. Two, this thanks will be shown to everyone in heaven, so it is even more honorable. Three, the thanks will always continue, and each person shall be rewarded — even if they willingly served the Lord only one day. “And so the more a loving soul sees this courtesy of God, the more gladly will they serve him all the days of their life” (p 33).

7. We feel good and we feel bad spiritually, but we are kept by the goodness of God no matter how we feel. It is hard to summarize this showing since the whole thing is so comforting, and it is not very long. I would like to quote Julian at length:

"I was filled full of an everlasting sureness that took hold of me in power without any pain or dread. The feeling was so glad and so spiritual that I was in all peace and rest, so that nothing on earth might grieve me. Yet this lasted but a while; then I was changed, left to myself with all the heaviness and weariness of life—I was burdened with myself, so that I barely had patience to live" (pp 33-34).

"This vision was shown to my understanding, that it is necessary for some souls to feel this way, sometime in comfort and sometime failing, left all alone to themselves. For God wants us to know that it is he who keeps us surely whether we be in woe or weal" (p 34).

"When it pleases him, our Lord gives freely of himself, and then sometimes he suffers us to feel in woe. Yet both are one and the same love; for it is God's will that we hold ourselves in his comfort with all our might" (p 34).

We give you glory: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mLoyZ4h0EX0

Some more:

8. Jesus' pains as he died. Julian sees Christ die slowly, his color changing and his flesh becoming dried. She speaks of a cold wind that dries him and pains him. The description is detailed. One of her prayer requests had been to share in his pain, so this is a fulfillment of that. She realizes that if she had known what the pain was like, she wouldn't have prayed for it. However, what is the worse pain she can have, and by extension, any of us? To see our Love suffer. “Here I felt truly that I loved Christ so much above myself that there was no worse pain I might suffer than to see him in pain” (p 39). He suffered the pains of all humanity that will be saved, so he suffered more than the whole of humanity itself.

All creatures that could suffer did so at Christ's dying. “And in general, everyone—even those who knew him not—suffered as they felt the loss of the comfort from God's inner keeping” (p 40). God withdrew at this time and Jesus, as well as us, were made nothing.

Julian for the first time brings up the distinction between our outer “sensual” nature, and our inner “substance.” It was her sensual aspect that repented of wanting to share in Christ's sufferings, but in her inner spiritual substance, she did not. She purposed to stay with Christ. The inner part is kept in peace and love, and the inner is master over the outer; the inner wills steadfastly to be with Christ. The inner draws the outer by grace, and they will be oned by Christ.

As he seemed about to die, everything changed. Julian saw his face and she was “as happy as could be.” What he showed her was that it is the Lord's plan that we be on the cross with him while on earth, dying in our pain and passion. When we die, we will immediately be with Him blissfully. Our own suffering is to make us heirs with him. And the greater our pains, the greater will be our reward in heaven.

9. The Trinity is glad for Christ's passion and we are to be encouraged by this. Julian gives us a conversation between her and Christ, so it would be good to reproduce it here:

"Then our good Lord asked me, 'Are you pleased I suffered for you?' I said, 'Yes, dear Lord, in your mercy: yes, good Lord, bless you always.' Then our good Lord Jesus replied, 'If you are pleased, then I too am pleased. This is my joy, my bliss, my endless liking that I was ever able to suffer for you. For truly, if I could have suffered more, I would have suffered more'" (p 46).

She sees three “heavens,” all equal, and each one “belonging to the blessed manhood of Christ,” and more specifically to his passion. The first has the Father in it, spiritually, which is to say that the Father is in Christ. There is joy here, which is the Father's good pleasure. Here is the prize that the Father game him, Jesus' crown, and that prize is all who are saved. Jesus lets her know that he would die innumerable times out of love for us. Because he was a man, he only had to do it—die—once, but his attitude is that out of sheer love, he'd do it over and over again. So, what He also means by this is: what else would he not do for us?

The second “heaven” is hardly described at all, but it has happiness in it, which is the honor of the son. There was much pain in his passion, yet his love exceeds the pain as much as heaven is above the earth. And this love was “without beginning” (p 47). His passion was perfect.

The third “heaven” represents the Holy Spirit and endless liking, which refers to the endless rest of the Holy Spirit. Julian was shown Jesus' passion five different ways: the bleeding of his head; the discoloring of his face; the profuse bleeding from the scourging; the “deep dying”; and, the joy and bliss.

“For God wants us to share in his pleasure at our salvation, taking comfort and strength that we have been saved. He wants our soul to be busy at this task, merrily cheered by his grace. . . . Jesus wants us to take heed of all the bliss that is in the blessed Trinity for our salvation; and that we desire to have as much liking in spirit, with his grace, as is already said: that is to say, the liking we take in our salvation should be similar to Christ's own joy, so far as it is possible on this earth” (p 48-49).

10. The Lord's heart was broken for love. This is a short, but intensely loving vision. Jesus shows Julian his wound, and it is large enough to save all who will be saved. She realizes his heart was broken in two. Jesus said to her, “Lo, how I loved you” (p 50). He has endless bliss in our salvation, and wants us to be glad in it. Whatever we pray for that is toward our holiness, he will grant.

Our Only Hope: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCh4AsVrHhY

Hey guys,

Just been an obesrver since I've never read these books.

Could you give a brief bio for these people? I have never heard of any but Augustine.

zoegirl wrote:Hey guys,

Just been an obesrver since I've never read these books.

Could you give a brief bio for these people? I have never heard of any but Augustine.

OK, I'll work on some - thanks for looking.

As for Julian, there's not all that much to write. She didn't talk about herself in her book, except for that which was necessary. Her revelations came to her in May 1373, when she was seriously ill, so her birth is figured to be in 1342 (how long she lived is not exactly known, but she did say in her writing that she dwelled on her visions for 20 years). She was an anchorite at a small church in Norwich, but apparently after she had the visions; an anchorite is somewhat of a hermit, connected to a church. They pray for people, give spiritual counsel, and sometimes do other tasks. When Julian received her visions, she could not write. She taught herself to write, and wrote the Short Text of her visions. Later, she wrote the Long Text. She was the first woman to write a book in English

zoegirl wrote:Hey guys,

Just been an obesrver since I've never read these books.

Could you give a brief bio for these people? I have never heard of any but Augustine.

Here is a link to wikipedia - wikipedia is not the beston this subject by it list many people we discuss. This link may help you at least learn more about these people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism

I'll also write a brief bio on some of these people mentioned so far...


Here is more info on Lady Julian of Norwich:

http://www.umilta.net/julian.html
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The important thing about the Christian Mystic's is their teaching that one can live and experience what John 17:26 states. They teach that one can be united with the Lord and experience a living relationship with Him. They talk of becoming in union with Him not by effort but by God's grace calling to you to come close to him. This coming to know the Lord can be difficult but these writers call us to labor to develop this living relationship through prayer. This labor is not a means to earn favor with God but rather learn of his grace; that he desires you to seek him so he will be found without any doubt in who you find. The Christian Mystic way involves dying to self and being transformed by the love of God into the 'new man' Paul wrote about.

They speak of seeking the Lord with a longing heart of love and waiting in silence for him shine a ray of light into your soul. It is by God's grace that he shines this light of love. It comes only as God so will's to those that ask, seek, and knock. It involves experiencing something profound within you and without (or as these writers would say in the no-where so you can't fabricate it). You remain rational and can carry on when it happens. Brother Lawrence's book — 'Practicing the Presence of God' captures this quite well.

Few writers:

Francios Salignac de la Mothe Fenelon was the Archbishop of Combray France during the 17 Century. He lived 1651 till 1715. He taught and urged readers to abandon themselves to God and seek perfect love and inner excellence. Some scholars label him as a Quietist; however, after reading some of his works his basic teaching, as with all Christian Mystics, was to learn to love God and be filled with God's perfect love so we can share that with those around us. He taught inner perfection or excellence involving the process of sanctification and dying to self (unhealthy self-love).

I do not think or gather from his writings that he taught that a person can become sinlessly perfect in this life all the time. He has been accused of that but reading his works seem to point out that he taught how to become a reflection of God's love on earth and thus engaged you sin less and less. Battles with sin are a part of this life but these can be overcome through union with the Lord by agency of God's grace to know his love and be transformed by it - thus sin less than you did the day before. As the bible teaches "let not sin rule you," rather, 'be transformed into the likeness of Christ like virtue - greatest being love for God that overflows into all avenuse of a person's life.

Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon (1648 1717)— I first heard of her from an article written by Ruth Graham (Billy Grahams wife).

Guyon taught that a Christian should pray all the time in a unique fashion of what I call being aware of God's presence so that what ever you do, you do it as unto the Lord. She taught that: "Prayer is the key of perfection and of sovereign happiness; it is the efficacious means of getting rid of all vices and of acquiring all virtues; for the way to become perfect is to live in the presence of God. He tells us this Himself: "walk before me, and be thou perfect" Genesis 17:1.” From her biography,

Again, according to her, it is through prayer when one can be free from sin; however, she also understood that sin indeed returns in this mortal life. Her goal was to sin less than the day before by God's grace alone. Many readers miss this when reading her works. The idea of perfection — is to be understood as excellence — the excellence of being united with God's love that infuses His love in us to be a reflection of Christ like excellence-virtue-character.

Guyon defended the belief that salvation is the result of grace, not works. She taught that a person's deliverance and salvation can only come from God as an outside source and never by a person's own works. She taught against self righteous works to earn favor or salvation and thus was deemed a subversive to the Roman Catholic Church of her time and era. Her idea of predestination has much in common with Calvin with a few variations.

Please note that the late Ruth Graham should also be added to the list of Christian Mystic's as well.

Brother Lawrence (1614 - 1691) was a lay brother in a Carmelite monastery. He taught that one can live in closeness and in a living relationship with God. He wrote the classic Christian text, 'The Practice of the Presence of God.'

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090 - 1153). He was a French abbot of the Cistercian monastic order. He taught on being transformed by the love of God.

These are a few…

I'll add a few more later…
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More on Christian Mystic's and what they wrote about

When reading these writers who wrote before the 20'th century, one must note that they wrote during a time when the masses were largely illiterate in the art of reading and writing. Therefore, they wrote in order to instruct those on the principles of how to have a living relationship with the Lord of glory as this is what the bible teaches.

Many of these writers also revealed the concept of God's grace that helped restore the Church to its roots in Christ Jesus. Martin Luther was influenced by these writers.

They wrote as they learned. What they recorded was how they learned to develop becoming one with the Lord in the purpose of love and to experience his presence in the here and now. This the New Testament, as well as the Old, teaches. Look at the following examples of scripture:

Deuteronomy 30:6, “And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.”

Deuteronomy 6:5-6, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.”

1 Corinthians 8:3, “But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.”

1 John 4:16-17, “So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.”

As you can see, there is something to this. It is unfortunate that such biblical teaching is called Christian Mysticism as it gives people the wrong idea. Even several mystics succumbed to wrong ideas in their writings so be fore warned of this if you decide to read any of their works. Also worldly people like to correlate such teachings to various forms of meditation practices and philosophic ideas but these correlations mislead readers into error and false practices that many Christian mystics warn about.

These writers wrote of their experiences in how to develop a personal and heart felt experience with the Lord. Many record their spiritual exercise and foible attempts at reaching God. So if you read their works, note this, they write from their experiences. Most of these writers, after encountering God, learn that it is by God's grace that you enter into special encounters with the presence of God.

God will call, and you respond by simple faith. So after all the effort they wrote about, the conclusion is this: it is easy and many of their recorded efforts are unnecessary to encounter God. However, by such exercises one may learn like they did to encounter God by his calling of grace. There are similarities but each encounter is personal and varies from person to person. There is one common theme - such seeking causes one to realize how dark and corrupting sin is.

What many reveal is that seeking the Lord, as they described, will at first cause the seeker to become aware of how sinful we really are. How wicked and deceitful the human heart is as Jeremiah 17:9-10 reveals is made known. You learn, after practice, that it is by God's grace that he begins to clean your heart i.e. circumcise it. He begins the work of sanctification within you. His love will push out indwelling sin.

This does not mean we will ever be free of sin in this life but rather that we can overcome individual sins one at a time. In other words, you learn to walk in according to the Spirit so as not to fulfill the desires of the flesh. As your love for Christ grows, you'll learn to be set free from sins that plague you. After these are overcome, more sins will be made known to you and the process repeats as long as you are in this mortal life. In other words, you learn sin less than the day before. When you do sin, you learn to repent fast.

Is this scriptural? Read Romans 6 sometime soon as well as 2 Peter 1:3-11. Here are a few verses:

Romans 6:11-12, “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.”

Romans 6:14, “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. “

2 Peter 1:4, “…by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire…5-7 add to your…”

From this, you learn that it is God's desire that you may know him and experience him in this life as Jesus reveals in John 17:3, “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

From this, Jesus prayer leads to this:

John 17:22-26: “The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me…26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

As you can see, the Lord wants to transform our lives so the we may know him. Even Paul prayed this:

Ephesians 3:17-20, “So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith--that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us….”

Paul knew we, as Christians, have the need to be filled with the fullness of God! Do you desire this?

This is where the Christian Mystic's come in. They describe the processes of how they came to know the Lord. There is much to learn from them as well as much to avoid. There is really no set program or stages to come into an encounter with the Lord. It is by his grace alone that we enter. We access His Grace by simple child like transforming faith. This is the proper conclusion many wrote about.

This is what I try to teach people regarding how to develop that personal relationship with Christ is to begin asking, seeking, and knocking as it is written:

Matthew 7:7-8, "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Luke, 11:13 states — “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

You are to ask in simple faith as it is written:

Mark 11:24-25, “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."

Note that if there is sin blocking your seeking — let the Lord expose it as well as forgive those that trespass against us.

Whatever you do, just ask, seek, knock that the Lord will shine a ray of his love into your heart. It is that easy.

2 Corinthians 4:6, “For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ…”

Keep on asking, seeking, and knocking. Let sin be exposed in you and dealt with one day at a time. Always, ask, seek, and knock that God will have you encounter his presence so that you may know him in a special way. Do not expect anything or seek after experiences but rather wait patiently on the Lord.

Then, one day, he will encounter you with his love that you may know him like you never known him before. Such encounters will increase your love to read the bible and be rid of selfishness. If not, then you encountered something else not of God.

A sure sign of one that practices such asking, seeking, and knocking to know the Lord as well as experience his great love will be that it will transform you as it is written:

Romans 12:9-12, “Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer."

You will learn to know that the Lord loves justice hating evil and wrong doing. You'll be living the same things balanced and mature about carrying out the will of the Lord uniquely…

Isaiah 61:8, “For I the LORD love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.”

You will develop a love for the brethren in your local Church because you end up learning how to live through Christ. You will realize that your own brand of love needs to be transformed to become his love shinning through you....

1 John 4:9-11, “In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another…”

His love is not wishy washy emotionalism nor willy nilly tolerant. It is a love that is firm and fair. It is the kind of love that slays the soul in order to resurrect into new life. His love will rebuke and chastise as well as nurture you along during this mortal life. His love is painful at times and causes you to see how dark sin makes the sons and daughters of men.

His love will not make light of sin nor lead you away from the scriptures. His love will instruct you on who God is from the bible. It will teach you about the justice of God. If one loves not the Lord, his love respects that and sends them where they desire — evidenced by how they lived their life on earth — to ones final reward. In other words, God's love holds people to account and will repay human beings according to our ways and will make it befall them. Don't misrepresent the love of God as has happened to some.

When you keep on asking, seeking, and knocking in prayer to know and experience the Lord expect nothing. Pray to increase your love for God and to know him. Suddenly, a ray of light will land upon you when you least expect it and you'll never be the same.

Know this: no two experiences are the same. How the Lord dealt with me on this matter will not be the same for you. As one brother in Christ so stated to me — God is omni-personal; therefore, even the writers of these encounters own experiences know that every person's encounter will be different. The effects however will transform your life.

So do you have simple faith? Faith that is energized by God's love? Then ask, seek, knock for it as it is the good pleasure of the Father to grant you the kingdom of God within as well as outside you… Never stop asking, seeking, knocking...pray continually...

Be blessed in growing in the knowledge of the Lord and be transformed by the power of his love! If you are not a Christian, then you cannot enter in. The door will remain shut until you come to Christ as the bible prescribes.

Therefore come to Christ with this simple prayer: Father forgive me a sinner - have mercy on me a sinner - change my life, I surrender to you. Dear Lord Jesus fill me with thy Spirit, teach me your ways. lead me to a place where I can grow, Amen.
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Here is some information on Hildegard of Bingen.

From product description on Amazon, Hildegard of Bingen: Selected Writings (Penguin):

Benedictine nun, poet and musician, Hildegard of Bingen (1098 1179) was one of the most remarkable figures of the Middle Ages. She undertook preaching tours throughout the German empire at the age of sixty, and was consulted not only by her religious contemporaries but also by kings and emperors, yet it is largely for her apocalyptic and mystical writings that she is remembered. This volume includes selections from her three visionary works, her treatises on medicine and the natural world, her devotional songs, and fascinating letters to prominent figures of her time. Dealing with such eternal subjects as the relationship between humans and nature, and men and women, Hildegard's works show her to be a wide-ranging thinker who created such fresh, startling images and ideas that her writings have been compared to Dante and Blake.

From the Introduction of: The Life and Works of Hildegard von Bingen (1098-1179) (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/hildegarde.html):

Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) was a remarkable woman, a "first" in many fields. At a time when few women wrote, Hildegard, known as "Sybil of the Rhine", produced major works of theology and visionary writings. When few women were accorded respect, she was consulted by and advised bishops, popes, and kings. She used the curative powers of natural objects for healing, and wrote treatises about natural history and medicinal uses of plants, animals, trees and stones. She is the first composer whose biography is known. She founded a vibrant convent, where her musical plays were performed. Although not yet canonized, Hildegard has been beatified, and is frequently referred to as St. Hildegard. Revival of interest in this extraordinary woman of the middle ages was initiated by musicologists and historians of science and religion. Less fortunately, Hildegard's visions and music had been hijacked by the New Age movement, whose music bears some resemblance to Hildegard's ethereal airs. Her story is important to all students of medieval history and culture and an inspirational account of an irresisible spirit and vibrant intellect overcoming social, physical, cultural, gender barriers to achieve timeless transcendence.

There are many music videos on YouTube of Hildegard's music. Here are a couple of links to start you out:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jMnXjLD7J ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XqvoB4uN1Qs

cslewislover wrote:...Less fortunately, Hildegard's visions and music had been hijacked by the New Age movement, whose music bears some resemblance to Hildegard's ethereal airs. Her story is important to all students of medieval history and culture and an inspirational account of an irresisible spirit and vibrant intellect overcoming social, physical, cultural, gender barriers to achieve timeless transcendence.

Not only Hildegard's but other Christian Mystic's as well have been hijacked too...

When one attempts to study the old Christian Mystic's one must be careful and discerning for there are two categories of this venue. To understand this a bit more clearly, let me use allegory from scripture to explain things as simply as I can.

There are two types of Christian Mysticism. One branch is like Abel and the other like Cain. Abel represents those that understand that it is only by the blood of the lamb slain before the foundation of the world that one can approach God. Those like Abel know it is only by God's grace and God's work alone that one can enter God's presence and be transformed by the experience.

Then there are those like Cain who attempt to exalt the works of men as the means encounter God and be changed. They add the philosophy and ideas borrowed from men such as Platonic thought, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc, and New Age idealism. They mix these into Christian thought as a means to properly encounter God on their terms, not God's.

Those like Cain are always jealous and envious of those like Abel. They slay Abel by smiting him with neo-platonicism, new age'isms, Hindu, or other eastern meditation techniques causing people to think that Cain's ways are superior to Abel's or at least equal to Abel's. Thus, Abel's ways are obfuscated and buried under a myriad of terms and phraseology.

Then from the son's and daughters of mankind there are those who are like Seth that arise to take Abel's place. Those like Seth understand that it is by God's sacrifice alone one's nakedness is covered so one can approach God. By God's grace, they are drawn to the Lord to experience walking with him in the cool of the day. They write and leave a legacy for others to follow.

Then, someday from Seth, comes those liken too Enosh. It is during Enosh's time that people began to call upon the name of the Lord again. Enosh means one who is frail and weak, i.e. humble before the Lord. Those meek and humble learn to call upon the name of the Lord and rely upon him alone. This the true Christian Mystic writes of in great details!

Then there are those like Cain who produce those like Lamech intent on keeping human effort at the forefront as the means to earn favor with God. They war against the offspring of Seth and misuse God's promises for their own warrior gain in attempts to prove that their way is the superior way to reach a utopian dream.

When one studies the genealogies in the bible it is interesting that Enoch is the seventh son from Adam through Seth. Through Enoch, godliness attained its highest point by walking with God. It is also interesting to note that Elijah, like Enoch, was taken away by God, and carried into the heavenly paradise. This the true Christian Mystic also seeks with great humility!

Through Cain's progeny it is interesting to note that his progeny seem to be named after Seth's progeny: maybe as a means of counterfeiting blessings from God? Through Cain came Lamech, the seventh from Adam, and sixth from Cain, when ungodliness increased by the sword of Lamech (Gen 4:24-3). Those like Cain attempt to name his progeny after Seth's. So be forewarned of angels of Darkness masquerading as angels of Light.

It is through those like Seth, these are carried by God's grace to experience the Lord, fresh and new, forever transformed by the experience. They depend on the grace of God granted from the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world to come near the Lord so they can learn how to walk with God in the cool of the day.

So as we add and explore the writing of Julian and others, please be aware of those of Cain that attempt to counterfeit the real! They attempt to slay in commentaries and book reviews of those whom are real.
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