Evidence for God from Science

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Since I am an Adventist, I find this article of great interest...anyone else especially non-Adventists?

http://www.comece.org/comece.taf?_funct ... anguage=en

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cslewislover wrote:What would passing that do in reality? I don't understand how that works there. Would everyone be required to have Sunday off? That would seem pretty amazing.

Adventists for the most part (and I would guess most, if not all Sabbatarians) believe that a day will come when the day of worship will be mandated to all. How that will come about with respect to the first amendment is not so difficult to fathom given the angle of this approach.

See also: http://my.barackobama.com/page/communit ... ium/gG5ngR
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cslewislover wrote:That's pretty interesting coming from a liberal. I can't believe he thinks beggars will stop, however, because it would be Sunday and there'd be no one around. They'd just go to where the people are: at church or parks or door-to-door. Anyway, it seems so astoundingly unlikely to happen. But you never know, anything could happen. Why do Adventists believe that? (Are those pictures of your car?)

Simply put, we believe that there will come a time when our loyalty and beliefs will come to be tested...similar to Daniel and his friends in the days of Nebuchanezzar. Specifically to Sabbatarians. It's the only Command of God that Christians differ on. Some say the day of worship is no longer a concern, or that the Sabbath is Jewish, or it's of the OT, or done away with at the cross... As Adventists, we believe all 10 are worthy of following. Some would call us legalists for attempting to "keep" the Sabbath. I would simply counter by asking if it is legalistic to attempt to keep from lying, to keep from taking God's name in vain, to endeavor to honor father and mother...and the rest. Is it legalism to adhere to ANY religious belief? We are certainly not saved by our works, (Sabbath keeping included) however I believe, as others do, this doesn't give license to do as we please. If there is a right way, then we should keep doing what is right. If this thought of Blue Law coming back transpires...what of it? Does it sit well with the rest of Christianity? It's not a bad thing to ponder is it?

Sadly, there is much legalism in Adventism. I am lucky to have been raised in a non-legalistic Adventist family. While we uphold our beliefs, at this point in time we believe that there is no "real" difference in worshiping on Sunday or Saturday. It is up to one's own conscience. However if the time would come to choose to follow man's mandate or God's...I would easily choose God's eternal word over man's.

It is part of the work of Antichrist as we (Adventists and a few others) interpret Daniel 7:25.

Anyway thanks for asking...I'm interested in what your thoughts (anyone reading this and the links) would be concerning a law that mandated only one day of "rest".

The pics of the car below is not my car. I wish it were!!
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BavarianWheels wrote: Simply put, we believe that there will come a time when our loyalty and beliefs will come to be tested...similar to Daniel and his friends in the days of Nebuchanezzar. Specifically to Sabbatarians. It's the only Command of God that Christians differ on. Some say the day of worship is no longer a concern, or that the Sabbath is Jewish, or it's of the OT, or done away with at the cross... As Adventists, we believe all 10 are worthy of following. Some would call us legalists for attempting to "keep" the Sabbath. I would simply counter by asking if it is legalistic to attempt to keep from lying, to keep from taking God's name in vain, to endeavor to honor father and mother...and the rest. Is it legalism to adhere to ANY religious belief? We are certainly not saved by our works, (Sabbath keeping included) however I believe, as others do, this doesn't give license to do as we please. If there is a right way, then we should keep doing what is right. If this thought of Blue Law coming back transpires...what of it? Does it sit well with the rest of Christianity? It's not a bad thing to ponder is it?

I don't know. Are you saying you'd actually like these laws to pass? Lol. That's hard for me to believe (well, I do remember you writing about the end times coming sooner by things, or at least watching out for the signs). So, I may not be thinking of this correctly here. This is something so foreign to me at the moment, it's hard to think of. It seems odd to have a law for this. Anyway, as far as keeping the Sabbath voluntarily, I'll admit that I feel as though I should keep the Sabbath (whatever day) much more than I do. I'm not sure why I'm slack with this. I guess it's part cultural, part sloth.

Sadly, there is much legalism in Adventism. I am lucky to have been raised in a non-legalistic Adventist family. While we uphold our beliefs, at this point in time we believe that there is no "real" difference in worshiping on Sunday or Saturday. It is up to one's own conscience. However if the time would come to choose to follow man's mandate or God's...I would easily choose God's eternal word over man's.

Yeah, don't most Adventists worhsip on Saturday? I don't keep up on all the differences.

It is part of the work of Antichrist as we (Adventists and a few others) interpret Daniel 7:25.

Oh, the set times? I should look that up, I mean in commentaries, since I haven't thought of that in a long time. Don't remember what pastors have said about it.

Anyway thanks for asking...I'm interested in what your thoughts (anyone reading this and the links) would be concerning a law that mandated only one day of "rest".

The pics of the car below is not my car. I wish it were!!
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Sorry it's not your car, lol.

You actually are kind-of warm and fuzzy today, Bav. Way to go.

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Looking fwd to your comments after you've looked into it. It's always interesting to me to read the thoughts of other Christians concerning these types of laws.

Am I not always warm a fuzzy??

Thx for noticing.
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BavarianWheels wrote:.
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Looking fwd to your comments after you've looked into it. It's always interesting to me to read the thoughts of other Christians concerning these types of laws.

OK, I'll make sure and look into it even more than I was going to, and post it in a bit.

Am I not always warm a fuzzy??

Thx for noticing.
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Lol, do you mean for noticing that you're warm and fuzzy today, or that you usually don't seem to be? Lol, sorry if that offends you - not sure how to take it.

Edit: I've had a sangria, and now I think for sure you want to appear non-warm & fuzzy. Lol - I haven't forgotten your avatar comment. Why is that? You don't want to seem like that neighbor in the Simpsons?

Just a short comment:

I have been to Europe often and most stores close early during the week (5 or 6pm), close early on Saturdays (noon to 3pm) and are just plain closed on Sundays. Also, many stores just close for lunch. (This is a very different situation from that in the USA.) Recently there has been a trend towards longer working hours, with some stores even opening on Sunday. When I was in Holland last summer, all stores except tourist traps were closed on Sundays.

Religion has nothing to do with the European Parliament vote. It has more to do with preserving the status quo.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Just a short comment:

I have been to Europe often and most stores close early during the week (5 or 6pm), close early on Saturdays (noon to 3pm) and are just plain closed on Sundays. Also, many stores just close for lunch. (This is a very different situation from that in the USA.) Recently there has been a trend towards longer working hours, with some stores even opening on Sunday. When I was in Holland last summer, all stores except tourist traps were closed on Sundays.

Religion has nothing to do with the European Parliament vote. It has more to do with preserving the status quo.

FL

That's amazing, FL, I didn't know that about Europe. It seems like what it was like when I was young, though, living in Michigan.

* * *

As for the times in Daniel 7:25, the commentary I have just says that the previously described beast/horns will try to change the jewish calendar for 3.5 years.

I found this on the internet after not finding anything good in books relatively quickly. I'm not posting this to bother you, Bav - it just seems to have some good info in it. This is from here: http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=46170

Do we disobey God when we worship on Sunday rather than on the Sabbath (Saturday)?

Sometimes Christians prefer to worship on the Sabbath (Saturday) for personal reasons, or they have a desire to reach out to Jewish people. Although we respect the motivations of these brothers and sisters, we must emphasize that Sabbath observance isn't required of us today.

Sabbath-keeping was part of a covenant with Israel that is not a moral obligation for the church. Even when Christians worship on the Sabbath, they aren't "keeping the Sabbath." To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with stringent regulations (e.g. Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21 ) that were strictly enforced.1

The early Christians may have worshiped on the Sabbath, along with other days of the week. It would be natural for them to do so, because most of them were Jews continuing to associate with their Jewish brethren. When Paul traveled from synagogue to synagogue in the Mediterranean world preaching the gospel, he often preached on the Jewish Sabbath. This was a matter of necessity. After all, Sabbath was the day Jewish congregations met and Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles associated with the synagogues were the natural recipients for the gospel message. However, Scripture ( Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ) and the writings of the church fathers show that the primary day for worship in the apostolic church was not the seventh day of the week, but the first.

Ignatius, the apostolic church father who was probably born during the time of our Lord's ministry and was, along with Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, said this about the Sabbath and Sunday worship:

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death -- whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith . . . . (Epistle to the Magnesians, chapter 9).

Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp (mentioned above) wrote:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration (Comments on weekly worship from chapter 67 of First Apology).

Along with Ignatius and Justin Martyr, many other apostolic and early church fathers clearly declared Sunday the Christian day of worship. This was long before the centralization of church authority in Rome and the "Christianization" of the Roman Empire under Constantine.2

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and other church fathers attribute Sunday worship to the fact that Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week. This isn't surprising, not only because of the symbolism involved with the day of our Lord's resurrection, but because the Lord Himself emphasized Sunday rather than the Sabbath by choosing it as the day in which He met with His disciples in His post-resurrection appearances ( Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20:19-29 ). Further, Sunday was the day the Holy Spirit manifested Himself and the church was born ( Acts 2 ).

While the moral principles underlying the other nine commandments are repeatedly expressed in the New Testament, not once does the New Testament instruct Christians to keep the Sabbath commandment. To the contrary, Colossians 2:16-17 states that we should let no one judge us regarding a Sabbath day. In Romans 14:1-6 the apostle Paul made it clear that he opposed controversy on "disputable matters." He declared, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (v.5).

God gave the Sabbath to Israel as a sign of His special covenant with His chosen people. It was part of an elaborate system of sacrifices, rituals, and offerings ( Exodus 31:13-17; Nehemiah 9:13-14 ). The Epistle to the Hebrews makes it clear, however, that the coming of the Messiah invalidated these regulations ( Hebrews 10:1-18 ). It emphasizes that the Old Testament has been replaced by a new covenant ( Hebrews 8:7-13 ). Paul warned the church in Galatia about legalism relating to the Mosaic law, saying:

How is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! ( Galatians 4:9-10 ).

When the Jerusalem counsel met to establish the obligations of Gentile believers in respect to Old Testament law, it concluded that the only "requirements" were to "abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality" ( Acts 15:29 ). Circumcision was rejected, and Sabbath-keeping wasn't even mentioned.

No longer do we need to linger in the shadows of Old Testament law. The New Testament -- not the Mosaic law -- is our standard. For Christians, the significance of the Mosaic system has been abolished. Its rules and regulations have authority only when they coincide with the unchanging moral principles affirmed in the New Testament.

Because the New Testament makes it clear that Sabbath-keeping is neither essential to salvation nor a crucial aspect of Christian living, we consider any insistence that Sabbath worship is essential to the Christian walk as legalistic and divisive. We respect fellow Christians who have personal reasons for preferring to worship on the Sabbath, and we consider their choice a matter of Christian liberty. We also recognize that there may be profound spiritual benefits involved with setting aside a day for rest, worship, and meditation -- whether that day be Saturday, Sunday, or another day. But bitter controversy over the Sabbath serves only to interfere with the proclamation of the gospel of God's grace to us in Christ Jesus.

If you are interested in reading more on this subject, contact the Department of Biblical Correspondence at RBC Ministries, Grand Rapids MI 49555-0001 and request a copy of Sunday: The Lord's Day.


1. "Violating the Sabbath was a serious offense, and the person who worked on the Sabbath was to be 'cut off from among his people' ( Exodus 31:14 ). During their wandering in the wilderness the Israelites brought to trial a man found gathering wood on the Sabbath. He was stoned to death according to the commandment of the Lord for profaning the Sabbath ( Numbers 15:32-36 )" (D. A. Rausch in Evangelical Dictionary Of Theology).

2. Evidence that apostolic Christians began observing the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- is so strong that Michael Green, F. F. Bruce, and other church historians cite it as important evidence for the resurrection.

Dan Vander Lugt

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Just a short comment:

I have been to Europe often and most stores close early during the week (5 or 6pm), close early on Saturdays (noon to 3pm) and are just plain closed on Sundays. Also, many stores just close for lunch. (This is a very different situation from that in the USA.) Recently there has been a trend towards longer working hours, with some stores even opening on Sunday. When I was in Holland last summer, all stores except tourist traps were closed on Sundays.

Religion has nothing to do with the European Parliament vote. It has more to do with preserving the status quo.

FL

I totally understand this...it is the "angle" of which I'm referring to. It's the (or an) angle at which it will (I believe) eventually make it past the U.S. first amendment. If it has nothing to do with religion...and the general feeling is that it works (i.e. Sabbatarians being in the minority) it gets voted in very easily. The U.S. gets a "rest day" and allows "persecution" of anyone opposing such a law.

My point, then, in this thread is to ask other Christians...what if something like this happens? People right now are pretty quick to say we Sabbatarians have every right to worship as we see fit. But what if a "non-religious" law comes in that says I no longer have the religious freedom to worship on Saturday. That now it is Sunday that is the "rest day" where everyone gets "rest"...coincidently the majority worship on Sunday anyway...?? Saturday now becomes a mandatory work day...every day becomes a mandatory work day except Sunday. Is there anything wrong with this?
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cslewislover wrote:I found this on the internet after not finding anything good in books relatively quickly. I'm not posting this to bother you, Bav - it just seems to have some good info in it. This is from here: http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=46170[/color]

Thank you cslewislover...I can certainly appreciate other interpretations...I'm not bothered. However my point here is not necessarily to debate the validity (or not) of the Sabbath on today's Christian. There is a Sabbath debate thread...or two. If you have a question or a point about it, I'd be more than glad to answer/discuss as best I can...I would love to discuss it with you...I'd just rather do it in a proper thread and not make this thread that discussion.

In this thread, I'm more interested in what other Christians (non-Sabbatarians) think of "blue laws"...Do they see this non-religious angle as such? Would they be inclined to support such a "rest day"...if so, why? If not, why?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

cslewislover wrote:I found this on the internet after not finding anything good in books relatively quickly. I'm not posting this to bother you, Bav - it just seems to have some good info in it. This is from here: http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=46170[/color]

Thank you cslewislover...I can certainly appreciate other interpretations...I'm not bothered. However my point here is not necessarily to debate the validity (or not) of the Sabbath on today's Christian. There is a Sabbath debate thread...or two. If you have a question or a point about it, I'd be more than glad to answer/discuss as best I can...I would love to discuss it with you...I'd just rather do it in a proper thread and not make this thread that discussion.

In this thread, I'm more interested in what other Christians (non-Sabbatarians) think of "blue laws"...Do they see this non-religious angle as such? Would they be inclined to support such a "rest day"...if so, why? If not, why?
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OK, yeah, I understood better from your previous response to FL. And I didn't mean for it to turn into a debate about Sabbath days (I don't care).

From what you say your concern is in that previous note - that people who worship on Saturday wouldn't be able to - then the law would just be wrong to me. Or there'd have to be exclusions. There are laws like that now. What if that were the case, Bav? If because of your religious belief, you wouldn't be required to work Saturday? I'd imagine it'd have about the same repercussions it has now - employers may not want to hire you.

Anyway, the idea seems so foreign to me - that the US would pass such a law. It seems so ideological and theoretical.

From what you say your concern is in that previous note - that people who worship on Saturday wouldn't be able to - then the law would just be wrong to me. Or there'd have to be exclusions.

I would think that there would be exceptions for SDAs and Jews.

FFC wrote:

From what you say your concern is in that previous note - that people who worship on Saturday wouldn't be able to - then the law would just be wrong to me. Or there'd have to be exclusions.

I would think that there would be exceptions for SDAs and Jews.

One would hope.

So are you saying you would support me (Sabbatarians) in our right to not be forced to work on Saturday should such a law come into effect?

How would you (the Christian community at large) vote given this scenario of a "rest day" for society?

I'm asking because it would seem odd given the assumed fact that if it made it through as a law, that means the majority would be in agreement on a needed "rest day" for the good of society. Wouldn't anyone opposing such a law be then seen as someone(s) against the betterment (is this a word?) of society?
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