Fossil Record- Interesting points

[Modulus]

It's clear fossils are buried uniformly, with simplest near the bottom and more complex occurring near the top layers.

I believe there is plethora of evidence of evolution even with less than perfect fossil record. Look at our DNA - ours and chimpanzee's is 4 chromosomes apart. Several retroviruses in ours and chimp's DNA are inserted in exact same place. The chances of even one of those viruses occurring in the same place are so minuscule it's practically impossible.

How do you explain this?

[cslewislover]

There was an article in the LA Times once - I know, not the be-all, end-all of scientific standards. But what it said in there about human and chimp DNA really surprised me, and I wonder if it is really true. And if so, how would this affect your view. What the article said was something like this: Human and Chimp DNA differ by so-and-so numbers. But if you look at the difference between human female and human male DNA, they differ by even more. I'm serious. And I'd like to find out more about this, lol.

[Robert Byers]

YEC here.
Nope fossils don't show primitive to higher.
All they show is life fossilized from different areas.
First primitive life is not primitive. its so complicated we can't make out of raw materials.
Its like today. We have horses on the land and bacteria at the bottom of the sea. If we froze everything and turned it into rock. people in the future would say the bacteria shows earlier stages and horses later but in fact its simply creatures living at the same time in different areas.
Modern geology fails to take in that fossilization events would fossilize everywhere if there was a single event.
They just never thought up about a great event fossilizing everything and so primitive along with higher is not evidence of descent but rather of low biology areas and high biology areas.
One is not accepting here life progression but rather geology presumptions.

[Kurieuo]

It's clear fossils are buried uniformly, with simplest near the bottom and more complex occurring near the top layers.

Such also supports a progressive creation account where God creates creatures over periods of time on Earth according to their suitability to the environment within such periods.

Obviously Earth's environment changed over time. Early on, it could not have sustained complex life, whereas later on it could. So all a simple to complex observation in the fossil records says is that Earth's environment was right for certain forms of life at certain times. It says nothing more. Darwin formulated his theory of gradual evolution based on such observations so should we really be surprised this supports his form of evolution?

I believe there is plethora of evidence of evolution even with less than perfect fossil record. Look at our DNA - ours and chimpanzee's is 4 chromosomes apart. Several retroviruses in ours and chimp's DNA are inserted in exact same place. The chances of even one of those viruses occurring in the same place are so minuscule it's practically impossible.

How do you explain this?

And yet, Atheists invoke the practically impossible occurred when it comes to fine-tuning arguments for God's existence. Seems like a double-standard here to me. Yet, there are benefits to such endogenous retroviruses, so again this also supports the belief that God made use of existing "templates" when creating brand new forms of life. Just like a coder may make use of frameworks or templates when programming.

[Modulus]

Obviously Earth's environment changed over time. Early on, it could not have sustained complex life, whereas later on it could. So all a simple to complex observation in the fossil records says is that Earth's environment was right for certain forms of life at certain times. It says nothing more. Darwin formulated his theory of gradual evolution based on such observations so should we really be surprised this supports his form of evolution?

Benefits? Please do name some.
Even if there are in fact benefits to them, why would God give 16 identical retroviruses ONLY to humans and chimpanzees. What, are they both special? It's much more reasonable to believe that those viruses mean we came from a common ancestor. God putting same viruses in DNA of 2 species is just downright silly.

And yet, Atheists invoke the practically impossible occurred when it comes to fine-tuning arguments for God's existence. Seems like a double-standard here to me. Yet, there are benefits to such endogenous retroviruses, so again this also supports the belief that God made use of existing "templates" when creating brand new forms of life. Just like a coder may make use of frameworks or templates when programming.

Tell me, wouldn't a being which possessed enough power to create life on Earth be able to just make the climate constant?
Why would it abide by some giant rock's changing climate to create new species over time?
God: Oh boy i hope it gets warmer soon down there, so i can create some new species

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Ah, it seems to me that what Robert Byers wrote was not addressed. Allow me to reprint his post:

Nope fossils don't show primitive to higher.All they show is life fossilized from different areas.

Yes.

First primitive life is not primitive. its so complicated we can't make out of raw materials.

Indeed.

We have horses on the land and bacteria at the bottom of the sea. If we froze everything and turned it into rock. people in the future would say the bacteria shows earlier stages and horses later but in fact its simply creatures living at the same time in different areas.

I guess so.

Modern geology fails to take in that fossilization events would fossilize everywhere if there was a single event.They just never thought up about a great event fossilizing everything and so primitive along with higher is not evidence of descent but rather of low biology areas and high biology areas.One is not accepting here life progression but rather geology presumptions.

I never thought of that.

[Kurieuo]

Modulus, please be aware to and respect the board guidelines and purpose of this board which you agreed to upon signing up.

Obviously Earth's environment changed over time. Early on, it could not have sustained complex life, whereas later on it could. So all a simple to complex observation in the fossil records says is that Earth's environment was right for certain forms of life at certain times. It says nothing more. Darwin formulated his theory of gradual evolution based on such observations so should we really be surprised this supports his form of evolution?

Benefits? Please do name some.

Google is your friend.

Retroviral sequences in human DNA thought to represent leftover genes from infection of retroviruses... studies have demonstrated that such sequences actually appear to block the infection of human cells with certain retroviruses. So such sequences seem to posses a vital function.

The presence of multiple HERV-K genes possessing an ORF indicates that stably integrated retroviral sequences may provide biological benefits for their hosts. A protective function against exogenous retroviruses has been proposed. Recently, involvement of an endogenous retroviral gag sequence in resistance to murine leukemia viruses has been demonstrated in the mouse (1). Likewise, an endogenous retroviral env in the mouse Fv-4 gene is responsible for resistance mediated by receptor interference (5, 7, . Similar genes, e.g., ev3 and ev6, have been found in the chicken (19, 24). Most recently, the assistance of endogenous retroviral sequences in immunosuppression by the embryo has been considered by Villareal (28).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=109477

Even if there are in fact benefits to them, why would God give 16 identical retroviruses ONLY to humans and chimpanzees. What, are they both special? It's much more reasonable to believe that those viruses mean we came from a common ancestor. God putting same viruses in DNA of 2 species is just downright silly.

You did not digest all I wrote. Re-read it again.

And yet, Atheists invoke the practically impossible occurred when it comes to fine-tuning arguments for God's existence. Seems like a double-standard here to me. Yet, there are benefits to such endogenous retroviruses, so again this also supports the belief that God made use of existing "templates" when creating brand new forms of life. Just like a coder may make use of frameworks or templates when programming.

Tell me, wouldn't a being which possessed enough power to create life on Earth be able to just make the climate constant?
Why would it abide by some giant rock's changing climate to create new species over time?
God: Oh boy i hope it gets warmer soon down there, so i can create some new species

So you want to confine the way God decides to create? There is no reason why God needed to have created everything at once.

[Modulus]

Retroviral sequences in human DNA thought to represent leftover genes from infection of retroviruses... studies have demonstrated that such sequences actually appear to block the infection of human cells with certain retroviruses. So such sequences seem to posses a vital function.

It still doesn't explain why only chimps and humans have those.
Kind of suspicious, especially combined with the fact that Darwin proposed our relation to chimpanzees long before DNA was even discovered.

So you want to confine the way God decides to create? There is no reason why God needed to have created everything at once.

It just seems rather odd and unlikely that a being of such awesome power would be limited in what and when it could create by some planet's climate and atmosphere.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

It just seems rather odd and unlikely that a being of such awesome power would be limited in what and when it could create by some planet's climate and atmosphere.

The Australian answered you:

So you want to confine the way God decides to create?

I saw your profile, Modulus. You are obviously confused: how can you be a Christian and not believe in Creation?

FL

[Kurieuo]

Retroviral sequences in human DNA thought to represent leftover genes from infection of retroviruses... studies have demonstrated that such sequences actually appear to block the infection of human cells with certain retroviruses. So such sequences seem to posses a vital function.

It still doesn't explain why only chimps and humans have those.
Kind of suspicious, especially combined with the fact that Darwin proposed our relation to chimpanzees long before DNA was even discovered.

Again, you seem to miss in my original post something crucial. If God used a common template in the brand new creation of chimps and humans, then they are both going to share similar traits. Such a method of creation is by no means absurd, since it could be seen as a more efficient way for God to have created. Just like a programmer makes use of their existing code and/or templates when creating new programs.

So you want to confine the way God decides to create? There is no reason why God needed to have created everything at once.

It just seems rather odd and unlikely that a being of such awesome power would be limited in what and when it could create by some planet's climate and atmosphere.

It seems rather odd that a being of awesome power and who obviously wants to be involved with His creation (if He decided to create), would be limited to having to create everything in an instant rather than work within the structure of His own created world.

[Modulus]

Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing god need some "templates"?
I thought only beings who are very limited in their intelligence and memory capacity need templates.


Viruses inserted themselves in DNA on Earth, even if viruses were created by god too.
There must have not been any viruses in 'god-given' DNA originally.
That just doesn't make sense.
If god wanted to help his creations against certain disease (which he himself created ), he'd just add some new genes, not insert a virus.

[harth1026]

Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing god need some "templates"?
I thought only beings who are very limited in their intelligence and memory capacity need templates.

The most knowledgeable programmers I know use templates. The feeble-minded ones start from scratch every time. I believe that an all-powerful and all-knowing God would be intelligent enough to also understand the benefits of reusing code and not to waste time reinventing the wheel several hundred times.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Why would an all-powerful and all-knowing god need some "templates"?I thought only beings who are very limited in their intelligence and memory capacity need templates.

Your impressions are wrong. When I build furniture, the use of templates assures me that all the pieces will fit when I eventually assemble them. Also, and more importantly, the use of templates testifies to my intelligence and ability. Get it?

harth1026 said the same thing:

The most knowledgeable programmers I know use templates. The feeble-minded ones start from scratch every time.

Modulus, you still haven't addressed this:

I saw your profile, Modulus. You are obviously confused: how can you be a Christian and not believe in Creation?

FL

[Modulus]

Neither of you addressed this:

Viruses inserted themselves in DNA on Earth, even if viruses were created by god too.
There must have not been any viruses in 'god-given' DNA originally.
That just doesn't make sense.
If god wanted to help his creations against certain diseases which he himself created, he'd just add some new genes, not insert a virus.

I am Christian, but please, that is for another topic. I just have some serious points regarding evolution that I would like you guys to help clear up for me.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Something tells me that you are not being straight with us. You really should answer my question as to how you can claim to be a Christian and not believe in creation.

FL