Evidence for God from Science

The following allegation has been made:

Hypostatic unity and the Trinity that is relied on the Hypostatic unity starts with Valentinus and finds its clear definition in Terullian. This is a fact.

My view is that the Trinity and hypostatic union are biblically based and I stand by my view -- John 1, for instance. Terullian was the first to use the term "trinity," but he didn't come up with the concept.

What puzzles me is how Valentinus fits into this as suggested by the skeptic.

I have the Gospel of Truth; I've read some of what Valentinus believed on the Internet; and spent a lot of time doing research, but I am confused.

We know he was a Gnostic.

We know he was branded as a heretic, but for what reason?

Was he advocating 3 gods?

I am hoping to hear from some of you who either have a handle on Valentinus or, perhaps, from some who have studied him in seminary.

Thank you.

Christian2 wrote:The following allegation has been made:

Hypostatic unity and the Trinity that is relied on the Hypostatic unity starts with Valentinus and finds its clear definition in Terullian. This is a fact.

My view is that the Trinity and hypostatic union are biblically based and I stand by my view -- John 1, for instance. Terullian was the first to use the term "trinity," but he didn't come up with the concept.

What puzzles me is how Valentinus fits into this as suggested by the skeptic.

I have the Gospel of Truth; I've read some of what Valentinus believed on the Internet; and spent a lot of time doing research, but I am confused.

We know he was a Gnostic.

We know he was branded as a heretic, but for what reason?

Was he advocating 3 gods?

I am hoping to hear from some of you who either have a handle on Valentinus or, perhaps, from some who have studied him in seminary.

Thank you.

From what I know on the subject is that anti-trinitarianists appeal to the writings of Velentinus as being the first source of the hypostatic union but nothing could be further from the truth. It was based, first and foremost, on Jewish pneumatology, Wisdom writings, and Jewish concepts of the Word of the Lord (very often thought to be autonomous), as well as of course post-resurrection writings including the New Testament and of the early church fathers.

If I were you I'd start by looking into the Wisdom writings. I think you'll find a treasure there on the hypostatic union.

Byblos wrote:

Christian2 wrote:The following allegation has been made:

Hypostatic unity and the Trinity that is relied on the Hypostatic unity starts with Valentinus and finds its clear definition in Terullian. This is a fact.

My view is that the Trinity and hypostatic union are biblically based and I stand by my view -- John 1, for instance. Terullian was the first to use the term "trinity," but he didn't come up with the concept.

What puzzles me is how Valentinus fits into this as suggested by the skeptic.

I have the Gospel of Truth; I've read some of what Valentinus believed on the Internet; and spent a lot of time doing research, but I am confused.

We know he was a Gnostic.

We know he was branded as a heretic, but for what reason?

Was he advocating 3 gods?

I am hoping to hear from some of you who either have a handle on Valentinus or, perhaps, from some who have studied him in seminary.

Thank you.

From what I know on the subject is that anti-trinitarianists appeal to the writings of Velentinus as being the first source of the hypostatic union but nothing could be further from the truth. It was based, first and foremost, on Jewish pneumatology, Wisdom writings, and Jewish concepts of the Word of the Lord (very often thought to be autonomous), as well as of course post-resurrection writings including the New Testament and of the early church fathers.

If I were you I'd start by looking into the Wisdom writings. I think you'll find a treasure there on the hypostatic union.

Thanks, Byblos. I, too, believe the hypostatic union is based on Jewish Wisdom theology. If so, then there is no real reason to seriously entertain whatever Valentinus believed or didn't believe, is there?

Here is a good definition of the word so others can follow:

From - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm --- "A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation..."

This actually is derived from the Old Testament from the early Yahwist traditions in understanding that the name of the Lord reveals God's essence and who he is. He is described as one and also as Elohim (Plural form of God) denoting unity of essence.

Look at these scriptures:

Isaiah 43:10-11, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. “

Isaiah 45:21-23, “Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn (Look) to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.”

Only God can save from sin and no other. Therefore Jesus has to be the 'Son of God' or the essence of God known as the 2'nd person of the trinity in order to accomplish the work of salvation. Also, he has to be a man so as to reconcile the enmity between God and man and to as the KJV states we can look upon — turn toward Him to be saved:

Isaiah 45:22, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

Genesis 3:21 reveals that God will provide what will truly cover and cleanse form sin: New skin, if you will permit the analogy here, to be clothed in Christ (hence a new birth). Jesus also had to be a man so he could be the ultimate sacrifice for sin through payment of the death penalty imposed by Adam's sin. He tasted death.

Hebrews 2:9-14, “But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12 saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise." 13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me." 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil…”

A truly innocent and sinless man cannot be held to eternal damnation — death as that would be unjust for a just God to do. So God so loved — that he sent his son into the world so that those that believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Therefore, God also proves his love by doing a 'work' that only he can do. I probably confused you but ponder these things more.

Also, the Trinity is found in the revelations of the Theophanies mentioned in the Old Testament as well as how the words, El, Elohim, Yahweh are used together, with other words, or separate — they describe one God in Three persons of one single essence: Truly, there is none like God (Fulfilling scriptures that state this very phrase).

For example, in the Exodus account of the gold calf, Aaron was led to sin by making elohim to go before the people so they could conquer the promise land because Moses tarried. Jewish scholars, who are honestly objective, are perplexed by the use of elohim (plural usage same as used in Genesis 1:1) here.

The bull represents power (or a throne) and according to pagan beliefs a god would ride a Bull to exhibit power from this throne. They wanted an Elohim that they can fashion to their whims to ride upon their Bull / throne of power to conquer for them the promised land.

Also, they knew that Moses revealed that God would send a Messenger to lead them (Exodus 23:20 a Malek — Messenger). Since Moses tarried for so long, Aaron they thought was that messenger. So Aaron, anointed by Moses, the people figured, could fashion — make a new elohim to use as they could for their own whims to enter the promise land. Aaron must of thought this reasonable and joined in this sin.

After all, Moses had disappeared into a thundering cloud masked mountain 40 days ago - who knew if he lived or died. If died, then why not Aaron, anointed by Moses himself, be that Malek-messenger-angel God revealed would lead them?

Thus one bull did Aaron Fashioned for their new Elohim (Plural —God(s)) so that this elohim could ride on this 'one' throne. How could gods (plural) ride on one bull unless they understood the one true God (Elohim) as a trinity of one essence? Thus Exodus 20:1-7 was violated by the children of Israel.

Remember that in Exodus 24:8-11 it states that Aaron and the elders did indeed see a theophany of God. So it stands to reason that in Exodus 32 that Aaron would fashion one Bull for One God revealed as an Elohim. Get it?

Also, Aaron in verse 4 mentions 'your gods (Elohim)that led you out of Egypt.' Notice that the people knew that one God led them out of Egypt (Exodus 14:31) so to be true to context referring to gods used in this passage, it should read as: "Your God" and not as "your gods" in Exodus 32:4. After all, Aaron only made one calf. Ponder this a bit more.

There are other examples of this too — too numerous to mention.

Another interesting example is found in Exodus 33:14 when God said, “My presence shall go before you.” The Hebrew word translated presence is used with a plural verb which should actually read as: “My presences shall go before you”. This reveals the Holy Spirit and the Son!

Little details like these prove the Trinity is indeed revealed in the OT.

Like Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim), who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Hope this helps…
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B. W. wrote:Here is a good definition of the word so others can follow:

From - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm --- "A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation..."

This actually is derived from the Old Testament from the early Yahwist traditions in understanding that the name of the Lord reveals God's essence and who he is. He is described as one and also as Elohim (Plural form of God) denoting unity of essence.

Look at these scriptures:

Isaiah 43:10-11, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. “

Isaiah 45:21-23, “Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 "Turn (Look) to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.”

Only God can save from sin and no other. Therefore Jesus has to be the 'Son of God' or the essence of God known as the 2'nd person of the trinity in order to accomplish the work of salvation. Also, he has to be a man so as to reconcile the enmity between God and man and to as the KJV states we can look upon — turn toward Him to be saved:

Isaiah 45:22, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

Genesis 3:21 reveals that God will provide what will truly cover and cleanse form sin: New skin, if you will permit the analogy here, to be clothed in Christ (hence a new birth). Jesus also had to be a man so he could be the ultimate sacrifice for sin through payment of the death penalty imposed by Adam's sin. He tasted death.

Hebrews 2:9-14, “But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12 saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise." 13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me." 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil…”

A truly innocent and sinless man cannot be held to eternal damnation — death as that would be unjust for a just God to do. So God so loved — that he sent his son into the world so that those that believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Therefore, God also proves his love by doing a 'work' that only he can do. I probably confused you but ponder these things more.

Also, the Trinity is found in the revelations of the Theophanies mentioned in the Old Testament as well as how the words, El, Elohim, Yahweh are used together, with other words, or separate — they describe one God in Three persons of one single essence: Truly, there is none like God (Fulfilling scriptures that state this very phrase).

For example, in the Exodus account of the gold calf, Aaron was led to sin by making elohim to go before the people so they could conquer the promise land because Moses tarried. Jewish scholars, who are honestly objective, are perplexed by the use of elohim (plural usage same as used in Genesis 1:1) here.

The bull represents power (or a throne) and according to pagan beliefs a god would ride a Bull to exhibit power from this throne. They wanted an Elohim that they can fashion to their whims to ride upon their Bull / throne of power to conquer for them the promised land.

Also, they knew that Moses revealed that God would send a Messenger to lead them (Exodus 23:20 a Malek — Messenger). Since Moses tarried for so long, Aaron they thought was that messenger. So Aaron, anointed by Moses, the people figured, could fashion — make a new elohim to use as they could for their own whims to enter the promise land. Aaron must of thought this reasonable and joined in this sin.

After all, Moses had disappeared into a thundering cloud masked mountain 40 days ago - who knew if he lived or died. If died, then why not Aaron, anointed by Moses himself, be that Malek-messenger-angel God revealed would lead them?

Thus one bull did Aaron Fashioned for their new Elohim (Plural —God(s)) so that this elohim could ride on this 'one' throne. How could gods (plural) ride on one bull unless they understood the one true God (Elohim) as a trinity of one essence? Thus Exodus 20:1-7 was violated by the children of Israel.

Remember that in Exodus 24:8-11 it states that Aaron and the elders did indeed see a theophany of God. So it stands to reason that in Exodus 32 that Aaron would fashion one Bull for One God revealed as an Elohim. Get it?

Also, Aaron in verse 4 mentions 'your gods (Elohim)that led you out of Egypt.' Notice that the people knew that one God led them out of Egypt (Exodus 14:31) so to be true to context referring to gods used in this passage, it should read as: "Your God" and not as "your gods" in Exodus 32:4. After all, Aaron only made one calf. Ponder this a bit more.

There are other examples of this too — too numerous to mention.

Another interesting example is found in Exodus 33:14 when God said, “My presence shall go before you.” The Hebrew word translated presence is used with a plural verb which should actually read as: “My presences shall go before you”. This reveals the Holy Spirit and the Son!

Little details like these prove the Trinity is indeed revealed in the OT.

Like Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim), who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Hope this helps…
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Yes, it does help. I appreciate all the work you did to pull this all together.

Thank you.

Christian2 wrote:Thanks, Byblos. I, too, believe the hypostatic union is based on Jewish Wisdom theology. If so, then there is no real reason to seriously entertain whatever Valentinus believed or didn't believe, is there?

Exactly.

Another point for Hypostatic Union is found in Genesis 3:15 as well as a proof for the Trinity:

" I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise (crush) your head, and you shall bruise (strike-wound) his heel." ESV - Gen 3:15

Here God is telling of the defeat of Satan and how it will happen. The bible describes that from the seed (offspring) of humanity will come a single person (a he) that will defeat Satan.

The only one that can defeat Satan is God. So what God is declaring is that He will come as a man to do this — the Son of God — the Messiah.

Question arises — why could not an angel or a created being do this task? Answer is found in the bible. Ezekiel 28:11-19 describes who was in Eden — the Garden of God. This was Satan and from this we learn he was fashioned with great power, skill, craft, knowledge and fell into sin. Elsewhere we learn he led one third of the angels in rebellion and snookered humanity into sin and rebellion too (Rev 12:7-10).

Aberrant Christian groups and Cults would like and attempt to disprove that Ezekiel 28 is a reference to Satan but God is wiser than they as it was written: “You were in Eden, the garden of God…” Eze 28:13. And please note Gen 3:1, “Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made…” (Was Eve in the Garden or out of the Garden - where was the serpent in the Garden or out of the Garden? Where was the Tree of Knowledge located?)

Bingo….

Satan had a high position of power in heaven and was more crafty, wise, etc. In fact in Jude 1:9 states that Michael the archangel (created being) while contending with the devil invoked the name of the Lord instead of fighting it out in a slug fest of power.

“But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." Jude 1:9

This reveals that other angels when engaged in battle cannot, of their own strength, crush Satan's head as Gen 3:15 stated. They understand that it is the Lord's job to do this, not theirs.

Even when battling Satan's offspring (captured humanity) “…angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.” 2 Peter 2:11

So how could a created being defeat Satan and do away with sin and rebellion forever in the light of what was just revealed above? Only God can do this as Genesis 3:15 directly refers too.

Still do not believe me? Think God will use a created being or angel to crush the head of Satan's power? Look again at what the book of Job reveals on this matter:

Job 4:17, “…Can mortal man be in the right before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker? 18 Even in his servants he puts no trust, and his angels he charges with error…”

God even charges his angels with error. After all, one third fell in with Satan. To defeat Satan is God's work; therefore, 'The Lord rebuke you….” the archangel Michael said.

Why…. And why not a created mere mortal man do this work? As it is written:

Job 15:15-16, “Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; 16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!"

Notice in Zec 3:1-2 quoted below that Yahweh is used three times. It is the Lord that Rebukes…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.: A threefold witness…

Zec 3:1-2, “Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel (Malek) of the LORD (Yahweh), and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD (Yahweh) said to Satan, "The LORD (Yahweh) rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD (Yahweh) who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?"

Why would Yahweh say to Satan, "Yahweh rebuke you, O Satan! Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you” if not as a revelation of the Trinity?

Therefore, Philippians 2:5-10 is indeed true as it lines up with the theme of Genesis 3:15 as well as Col 2:15, “And when he had disarmed the rulers and the authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in the cross…” ISV

God did indeed come in humanities form and indeed defeated the foe. This is only a work God can do. No created being could do this as Job 4:17 and 15:15-16 states because created beings are imperfect to the task of crushing Satan's rule and reign. Also as it is written:

Isaiah 48:11, “For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another… “

Isaiah 42:8, “I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other…”

This lines up with Job 4:17 and 15:15-16 does it not?

For God to do this work he has to be unlike all others:

Isaiah 46:9 -10, “…remember the former things of old; for I am God (EL), and there is no other; I am God (Elohim), and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose…”

Isaiah 45:5, “I am the LORD, and there is no other…”

Isaiah 45:21-22, “Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

Truly - There is none like the Lord!
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