Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:30 pm**

1.What is the objective purpose in claiming some verses as prophecy
about Jesus when they aren't even originated from the prophets themselves?
2.How do we recognize the difference between the actual-messianic
prophecies and the foreshadowing-substitute prophecies?
3.Why defend the foreshadowing-substitute prophecies, instead of the actual-messianic prophecies?
4.Why isn't Jesus a direct descendant of King David & Solomon?
5.With the foreshadowing already in place, why have they been fulfilled too late after the last prophet's death?
6.Why doesn't Jesus fulfill the actual-messianic prophecies the first time around?
Note:I'm not really having a problem with #2, but definitely lost with the rest.
Actual prophecy example: Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over
all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
'Foreshadowing' prophecy example: Psalm 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend,
in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Thank you for any and all input.~SC

Posted: **Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:39 pm**

SaintConfused wrote:1.What is the objective purpose in claiming some verses as prophecy
about Jesus when they aren't even originated from the prophets themselves?
2.How do we recognize the difference between the actual-messianic
prophecies and the foreshadowing-substitute prophecies?
3.Why defend the foreshadowing-substitute prophecies, instead of the actual-messianic prophecies?
4.Why isn't Jesus a direct descendant of King David & Solomon?
5.With the foreshadowing already in place, why have they been fulfilled too late after the last prophet's death?
6.Why doesn't Jesus fulfill the actual-messianic prophecies the first time around?
Note:I'm not really having a problem with #2, but definitely lost with the rest.
Actual prophecy example: Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over
all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
'Foreshadowing' prophecy example: Psalm 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend,
in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Thank you for any and all input.~SC

Well, regarding Psalm 41:9, Jesus himself quoted it (John 13:18). I'm really not sure what else to say about it, since it is used by Jesus himself, except that it shows that there were foreshadowings in the OT (or prophecies that weren't recognized as prophecies - although this one might have been because of the heel reference and Genesis 3:15. I don't know.).

Why do you ask about Jesus not being a direct descendant of King David and Solomon? Legally and royally, he is (Matthew 1:1-17). By lineage and blood, he's a direct descendant of David through Nathan (Luke 3:23:37). It was necessary that Jesus be descended not through Joseph because of the curse on Jechoniah (Jer 22:30) (W. Macdonald, pp 1203-1205; 1379).

Just because, I'll include a chart here of prophecies fulfilled by Jesus as listed in the NT. I'll try to look up and post more about foreshadowing soon.

From The Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns (Chicago: Moody Pubs, 1989, 2008; p 233).

Posted: **Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:07 pm**

What is being discussed here is HUGE.
I will say however that to know about prophecies better one must know the Old Testament better. Most of Revelation is the Old Testament. The Hebrew prophecy was more about patterns. So know the past patterns will guide to the future ones. We also have Greek prophecy which was more just about predicting the future. I choose to know the patterns of the past to know the future. The Holy Spirit is the counselor so seek His wisdom.

Posted: **Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:19 pm**

Here is a link to an article entitled: Salvation: The Old Testament Foreshadows the New. It covers salvation only, but it's interesting and covers part of what you ask. If you read it, go ahead and comment on it SC (and anyone else who wants to, of course).

http://www.bereanwatchmen.com/j.r.lawen ... e-new.html

Posted: **Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:50 pm**

csl,

Well, regarding Psalm 41:9, Jesus himself quoted it (John 13:18).

The psalms aren't from the prophets, unless I missed something when the 'foreshadowing' began that concluded on agreement that the Psalmist is also a prophet(?). When is quoting something, a fulfillment of it? by that attempt at logic I keep 'fulfilling' prophecy every time I quote something someone else says here.

it shows that there were foreshadowings in the OT (or prophecies that weren't recognized as prophecies
- although this one might have been because of the heel reference and Genesis 3:15. I don't know.).

I haven't been misinformed about anything, I'm certain. I just haven't been given certain answers about all this 'foreshadowing' business.
The only reason I don't recognize them as prophecies, is because the prophets didn't write of them and must be declined as actual prophecies
and only serve as substitutes that Jesus supposedly fulfilled (I have no way to feel I can accept this without some questioning).
The Torah is about God's laws, I have that down no problem. How much and what is prophecy, compared too the rest? this is
my challenge when Genesis through Deuteronomy are presented in the context of 'foreshadowing' along with several others.

Why do you ask about Jesus not being a direct descendant of King David and Solomon?

The small detail of the 'virgin birth', that doesn't connect Jesus to either bloodline (Matt 1 & Luke 3 genealogies).

Legally and royally, he is (Matthew 1:1-17).

Legally he is a *bastard (I'm not saying that to offend anyone), Joseph did not produce him with Mary.
The 'Holy Ghost' (God's Spirit, which ever you prefer to call it) had done this, and it has no recorded
genealogy in the entire bible with the exception of the Trinity folding in on itself as one God some how.
Which still doesn't connect him too David or Solomon.
He's no where near connected to royalty, even though Joseph is - sort of.
Notice how Jesus never obtains David's throne throughout the entire Gospel plot, there can't be a royal connection
if he can't reach that far without a problem in facing the Romans during that time[/b].
1 Chronicles 3. Solomon, Rehoboam, Abia, Asa, Jehoshaphat, Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham, Ahaz,
Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah, Jehoiakim, Jeconiah. 18, Matt 1 is missing 4 (Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Jehoiakim).
1. What is the 'legal' connection?
2. What is the 'royal' connection? and
3. When did the Holy Ghost carry the genealogies that are listed (Matt 1 & Luke 3)?
The first two shouldn't be too hard to answer, the third I don't think we can find even within the bible. Which, is a problem.

By lineage and blood, he's a direct descendant of David through Nathan (Luke 3:23:37).

Nathan isn't Solomon (Matt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;).
How is he a direct descendant with the 'virgin birth' via the Holy Ghost?

It was necessary that Jesus be descended not through Joseph because of the curse on Jechoniah (Jer 22:30).

Mary isn't in either genealogy, only Joseph. The father passes on royalty, not the mother, this is found throughout the Torah. Num 1:1-2,18 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
The curse denies Jechoniah's descendant's from the throne of David, also having him become childless.
Joseph couldn't sit on David's throne, and Jesus never did (according to the Gospels, he was no where near it).
The Messiah comes from David and Solomon, not David and Nathan,
or am I wrong about that? please do correct me if I missed something.

I'll include a chart here of prophecies fulfilled by Jesus as listed in the NT. I'll try to look up and post more about foreshadowing soon.

I've seen the chart, and here is what we're left with when we remove the 'foreshadowing' chapters
(see below image) and I'm not sure what to say regarding the 'fulfillment's' just yet.

Note: *bastard.
Deuteronomy 23:2-3,6 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever.
Deutr 23:4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt;
and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.
Nehemiah 13:23-27 In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab: And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people. And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin. Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?
Ezra 10:2-3 Seraiah, Azariah, Jeremiah, Pashur, Amariah, Malchijah.
Ezra 10:10-12 And their brethren, Shebaniah, Hodijah, Kelita, Pelaiah, Hanan, Micha, Rehob, Hashabiah, Zaccur, Sherebiah, Shebaniah.
Ezra 9:1-4 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied. Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and
I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice.
Neh 13:1-3 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever; Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing. Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude.
Ezra 10:1-3 Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore. And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there
is hope in Israel concerning this thing. Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.
Numbers 25:1-16 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor. And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel. Now the name of the Israelite that was slain, even that was slain with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a chief house among the Simeonites. And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was head over a people, and of a chief house in Midian.
Ru 4:13-22 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel. And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him. And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it. And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David. Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron, And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab, And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon, And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed, And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.
1 Ki 14:21 And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty and one years old when he began to reign, and he
reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD did choose out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his
mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.
Jeremiah 33:17-22 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Bastards & Cursed Blood: Moab, the bastard son of Lot, and father of the accursed Moabites via Ruth the Moabite who married Boaz, and her descendant King David. Ben-Ammi, the bastard son of Lot and the father of the accursed Ammonites via Naamah the Ammonitess wife of King Solomon and mother of King Rehoboam. Perez, the bastard son of Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar via his descendant King David.

Jesus having the Genealogies: He has Moabite blood via Ruth (Ru 4:13-22), the greatgrandmother of king David. He has Ammonite blood via Naamah
(1 Ki 14:21,31) the wife of king Solomon and mother of king Rehoboam. He is a descendant of Ben-ammi, A BASTARD who was conceived in an incestuous act between Lot and his younger daughter (via Naamah's Ammonite ancestry). He is a descendant of Moab, A bastard who was conceived in an incestuous act between Lot and his older daughter (via Ruth's Moabite ancestry).

~SC

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:22 am**

*sigh*

Saintconfused. I really don't think you are confused about anything. Honestly. In your own mind, things are done and finished. I present things to have a dialogue, but you present answers to them that are way out of Christian doctrine and general understandings.

People can and do have revelations from God, and there are revelations in the Psalms. In the OT, it talks of prophets, yet all of the prophets don't have books in the bible. David is considered a prophet of sorts, yes! Just because he doesn't have a separate book called "David" in the prophets section, doesn't mean he didn't reveal God's intention in his writings (certain psalms).

And God works within our human realm. Jesus was born of a virgin, so if you want to count that against him regarding the geneologies, then go ahead (the virgin birth was a miracle, the geneologies are for man). Lol. And for whatever reason you don't want to count prophecies fulfilled by him, go ahead. No one can force you to see who Jesus is. But I can't and won't go against my beliefs, and what I know spiritually, to accomodate certain debate.

On some of these issues that you ask, it would take a book to answer, and there are books on theology. Maybe ask a more specific question if you want to continue.

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:34 pm**

csl,

I really don't think you are confused about anything.

I still have no idea about 'foreshadowing', THAT does confuse me.
1.How is it applied?
2.What is and isn't 'prophecy' regarding Jesus?
3.What purpose do these 'foreshadowings' have while not coming from the prophets themselves?
This is the primary focus, not Jesus' genealogies. I told you (as well as everyone else)
already, if I have something wrong or misunderstood: I don't mind a correction.

In your own mind, things are done and finished.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean I like the conclusions I've been left with.

I present things to have a dialogue, but you present answers to them
that are way out of Christian doctrine and general understandings.

The bible itself cancels out the 'need' for some doctrines, and I'm sorry for my lack of 'general understanding' but pointing something out doesn't mean I'm going to instantly have a 'general understanding' and acceptance of whatever doctrines I've been missing out on. I used verses showing the cursed blood Jesus would carry, having a connection with King David. Of course doctrine won't teach you that, and 'general understanding' won't provide that kind of detail without some praise or something directed at Jesus for who knows what reason. Never mind, I probably have that wrong too.

People can and do have revelations from God, and there are revelations in the Psalms.

Name one time I said that they didn't have revelations from God? this is confusing, Psalms wasn't written by a 'minor' or 'major' prophet of the 'OT'. What analysis has been done to make the Psalms a book of prophecy, and no longer songs and such from King David? on a theology level, that's biblically unconstitutional. Is there a document that legalized 'foreshadowing' as acceptable prophecies about The Messiah that I missed out on? Does the Catholic Church allow this? how many denominations accept it?

In the OT, it talks of prophets, yet all of the prophets don't have books in the bible.

Why not? God refused for them too speak or write of themselves? there isn't inspiration in that method for comfort.

David is considered a prophet of sorts, yes!

Right. How much is prophecy from David and - the rest just happens to be there for no particular reason at all?

Just because he doesn't have a separate book called 'David' in the prophets section, doesn't mean he didn't reveal God's intention in his writings (certain psalms).

God's intention always seems to shift constantly. I'm not asking for a book called 'David' in the prophets section,
I'd like to know what difference there is between David's 'normal' writing and the 'foreshadowing prophecies' of Psalms.

God works within our human realm.

No kidding. I find it irritating that any human would be so arrogant to take that too whole different levels though.

Jesus was born of a virgin, so if you want to count that against him regarding the genealogies, then go ahead (the virgin birth was
a miracle, the genealogies are for man).

She's no longer a 'virgin' after Jesus is born.Let's not forget Matt 1:24-25 here. 'Firstborn' doesn't make Mary and Joseph no longer having other children just because Jesus gets a general focus throughout the Gospels. That's like just because I write about my cousin Holly, I'm not related too her, which is false. I'm not counting anything against him, I did ask where the Holy Ghost managed to have these genealogies though while in the process of impregnating the 'virgin'. (A miracle that A) makes the genealogies an unnecessary addition by the authors, B) disconnects Jesus from his cursed connection with David). What do you mean by saying they are 'for man'? with the 'miracle' they become a side note that loses it's 'royal' recognition on Jesus. Not to mention a product of incestuous relations, which is forbidden by God's law.

for whatever reason you don't want to count prophecies fulfilled by him, go ahead.

I don't see any reasoning behind this 'foreshadowing' thing - none has been provided.
I'm not counting these 'prophecies' out because of distaste or disapproval, I just don't understand what criteria must be followed for something
to be counted as a 'foreshadowing' for Jesus' arrival (or Second Coming, which isn't enforced in Judaism as an expectation of the Messiah). There is
no reasoning I'm receiving from this, if you can't answer the questions that's fine-I'm not forcing you too.

No one can force you to see who Jesus is.

It's okay, the bible explains what and who Jesus is - for some reason
I'm not seeing a 'loving' character being produced.

I can't and won't go against my beliefs, and what I know spiritually, to accommodate certain debate.

I'm not asking you too go against you're beliefs, or what you spiritually 'know'.
This is simple: I have questions that require answers. I didn't make this thread to
dismiss the entire New Testament and leave suddenly by rejecting Christianity.

On some of these issues that you ask, it would take a book to answer, and there are books on theology.

I have a few, and the results disappoint me.

Maybe ask a more specific question if you want to continue.

How have any of my questions (already posted) lacked specification? I have already given a note specifying
the differences between an actual prophecy (IMHO) and the 'foreshadowing' supposed prophecy.

I like you csl, I want us to continue being friends,

it's alright if you can't answer the questions here.

~SC

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:15 am**

Hi Sc.

What I meant by being specific is, instead of just writing this: "2.How do we recognize the difference between the actual-messianic prophecies and the foreshadowing-substitute prophecies?", with a list of other things, write some specific examples (verses) related to what you're asking there in no. 2. Then we can deal with those in whatever fashion. I have a book just on prophecy and it doesn't use your terms, so I can't even look them up myself.

In Galatians, Paul uses the term "foresaw." It's just an example, and you could look it up: Galatians 6:8. He also goes on to say that the story of Hagar and Sarah has another figurative meaning in 4:21-31. These are just a couple of examples in the bible of scripture having more meaning later, or having more than one meaning, as revelations come from God through time.

How do we know which are which? By a thorough reading of the NT, and by believing what it says. If you don't believe it or trust it, then there's not much point in discussing it (something this specific), is there? Since it's the main source of what you're asking about, then what can be said? I don't know. No one else has tried to answer you so far, so maybe that's what they think too. I don't know.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:04 pm**

cslewislover wrote: No one else has tried to answer you so far

Oh, I have been following this discussion between cslewislover and Saint Confused. The problem here is that Saint Confused is asking questions whose answers are spiritually understood and perceived. As an unbeliever, Saint Confused is covered by a veil of spiritual blindness (see 2 Cor 3:15 and 4:3-4) To be blunt, Saint Confused is spiritually dead. Read that again: spiritually dead. There is no way he will understand the answers cslewislover is giving him until he repents and recognizes Jesus as Lord.

cslewislover wrote: If you [Saint Confused] don't believe [the Bible] or trust it , then there's not much point in discussing it (something this specific), is there?

This is what cslewislover has been doing in this thread: :beat:

FL

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:59 am**

csl,

write some specific examples (verses) related to what you're asking. Then we can deal with those in whatever fashion.

Here is a prophecy regarding the role of the Messiah:

Jeremiah 23:5-6Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now, what will we be using for the 'foreshadowing' criteria as a verse that 'fulfilled' the words of God coming from the prophet Jeremiah?
I have no idea. Sure, Jesus judged a lot. Was it righteous? only if he followed God's law.

In Galatians, Paul uses the term 'foresaw.'

How does foresight equate to 'foreshadowing'?

it's just an example, and you could look it up: Galatians 6:8.

I don't see the word 'foresaw'. The closest you've got is 'sow','sowing', etc.

He also goes on to say that the story of Hagar and Sarah has another figurative meaning in 4:21-31.

That doesn't surprise me.

These are just a couple of examples in the bible of scripture having more meaning later, or having more than one meaning, as revelations come from God through time.

A prophecy and it's fulfillment are both one event, there is no repetition necessary. Unless, someone failed to fulfill the prophecies. In which case, we expect another and not the same individual. Although words have various meanings, I don't find that we should get carried away with them. I find it troubling that God would give revelations too an apostate, it makes no sense.

By a thorough reading of the NT, and by believing what it says.

Which came first, csl? I don't open the 'OT' and find Matthew to be the first chapter. I find Genesis instead.

If you don't believe it or trust it, then there's not much point in discussing it (something this specific), is there?

There is a point. My lack of belief or trust in it doesn't matter enough to have this discussion over before it even started.

Since it's the main source of what you're asking about, then what can be said? I don't know.

Not entirely. The 'foreshadowing' prophecies came before Jesus, did they not?
the main source isn't the NT, even though it does have an important placement here in speaking of how the 'foreshadowing' criteria works
and what Jesus actually fulfilled coming from the prophets as the expected messiah.~SC

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:51 am**

I'm sorry, SC, the verse is Galatians 3:8, not 6:8. "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: 'All nations will be blessed through you'."

RE: Jeremiah 23:5-6. That is a prophecy regarding Messiah, sure. Jesus is going to return and reign over the millenial kingdom, and forever. (Surely you know this, since you said you've read the NT. Why do you act like we don't know this and believe it? This is what I don't understand in your responses.) Since Israel rejected their messiah (Zech 12:10: "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child . . ."). His church and the church age establishes believers who worship in spirit. But there will come a time when He comes back and fulfills Jeremiah 23:5-6.

That is one example of why a prophecy about the expected messiah has not been fulfilled. From what you are asking, it sounds like you would be better off talking with a messianic jew or reading those types of resources. A jew who knew the Tanakh well, and then found truth in the NT and in Jesus, could answer your questions well, it seems. The only one I know of sort-of personally, who publishes things and speaks, is David Hocking. But I'm sure there are many others.

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:06 am**

FL,

The problem here is that Saint Confused is asking questions whose answers are spiritually understood and perceived.

Do you have concrete answers for my questions? please no Ad Homs. Attack my arguments
and not the 'fact' that I lack belief in the NT or have no 'spiritual understanding and perception'.

As an unbeliever, Saint Confused is covered by a veil of spiritual blindness (see 2 Cor 3:15 and 4:3-4).

According to 2 Cor 3:14, God is the one that gave me the veil of 'spiritual blindness' and I didn't do it myself. This is interesting: 'Christ, who is the image of God.' What does God's law say about images? Exodus 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the
third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
If you're truly a person of God, His law will not be ignored by you.
If you're allowed to use scripture to insult me, I can play fair.
The Hebrew scriptures warn about false teachers that attempt to turn people away from the law (Isa 8:20).

To be blunt, Saint Confused is spiritually dead.

Maybe from your perspective, but I have taken heed of God's law and this gives me life. Ezekiel 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 1:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

There is no way he will understand the answers cslewislover is giving him until he repents and recognizes Jesus as Lord.

I've been given few 'answers' here on the primary subject ('foreshadowing prophecies'). Repent,for doing what?

This is what cslewislover has been doing in this thread:

This is how you disappoint me:

, now please go clean yourself.~SC

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:41 am**

csl,

I'm sorry, SC, the verse is Galatians 3:8, not 6:8. 'The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: 'All nations will be blessed through you'.'

It's alright. It says nothing of justification for Gentiles, only blessings for those that bless Israel and curses for that those curse Israel. Israel (as a whole) acts as one in blessing Gentile nations, not as the Messiah alone. The Galatians passage doesn't fit with the covenant verse being mentioned (Genesis 12:1-3). Isaiah 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. Israel, not Jesus, is the servant. Israel, not just Abraham, will give blessings too all nations through the One God. The Messiah is a military leader, not a sacrifice for 'original sin'. Unless it can be demonstrated through prophecy (from the prophets) that he came for that purpose.

Jesus is going to return and reign over the millennial kingdom, and forever.

The Messiah doesn't have a 'Second Coming' and will not die until his mission is complete for Israel and the whole world. Jesus couldn't establish a kingdom during his Gospel existence, yet he can rule the Earth 1,000+ years? awkward. I know nothing of the whole 'millennial kingdom' scenario, it doesn't seem to match up with the Tanakh though.

Surely you know this, since you said you've read the NT.

Bits and pieces, I can't accept Paul's Anti-Semitic verses.

Why do you act like we don't know this and believe it?

What do you mean? if you 'know' something I don't, great, kudos too you csl. If you believe it, that's fine too.
Even though it may be incompatible with my own beliefs (or lacking of such).

Since Israel rejected their messiah (Zech 12:10: 'They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child.').

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be
in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. These two verses set up the background. At some future date, the nations of the world will be gathered against the Jewish people, and will besiege Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.This siege is part of a tremendous war, the war of Gog and Magog. The Jews shall fight back against the enemy nations, and they shall be victorious.
Zechariah 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day
shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek
to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Of course, the real source of the victory will be from Heaven.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
The concluding verses speak of someone who is pierced and dies. His death will so shock the nation that the people will be moved to repentance and mourning, an intense mourning of this person who is killed that it would be as if they were mourning for a firstborn son. Verse 11 paints a rather
dramatic picture of how widespread the mourning will be by comparing this mourning to the mourning the people did over the death of King Josiah,
who was killed in battle against the Egyptians, as told in 2 Kings 23:29-30. 2 Chronicles 35:22-25 tells that all of Judah mourning for him.
Notes: This scenario of war against the nations of the world didn't take place in Jesus' time.
The Jews (meaning the whole people) didn't mourn over Jesus' death according to the NT account.
The speaker in this verse is the Lord, yet in this translation, it appear that the Lord Himself is pierced. However, the rest of the verse would
indicate that the Lord was speaking of someone else. 'For him' they shall mourn. 'For him' there shall be bitterness.

There will come a time when He comes back and fulfills Jeremiah 23:5-6.

Why couldn't he do it the first time?

it sounds like you would be better off talking with a messianic Jew or reading those types of resources.

The 'messianic Jew' movement is evangelical, it's not really Jewish and isn't accepted by Israel law as actual Jews. It's treated as
a separate religion, as it's actually another denomination of Christianity. They aren't really Jews in abandoning the God of Israel for Jesus.

A Jew who knew the Tanakh well, and then found truth in the NT and in Jesus, could answer your questions well, it seems.

It's not worth that Jew becoming an apostate.~SC

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:35 pm**

SaintConfused wrote:Do you have concrete answers for my questions? please no Ad Homs. Attack my arguments and not the 'fact' that I lack belief in the NT or have no 'spiritual understanding and perception'.

I am not «attacking» you personally. If you have read the Bible and are familiar with it, you know that as a non-Christian you are spiritually dead. Explaining things which are spiritually perceived to a person who is spiritually dead is an exercise in futility.

Furthermore, I was an atheist for longer than you have been on this earth. I know that defending/discussing the validity of the Bible with an atheist or an agnostic is pointless, another exercise in futility.

If you are really reading through the Bible, that is good. By all means continue, if you are really doing this. At least you'll be better educated than most people your age, and that will be to your credit. Unfortunately, understanding the Bible is beyond your ability right now. Perhaps God will grant you the gift of faith if you ask for it. Good luck.

FL

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:39 pm**

FL,

I am not <attacking> you personally.

I find myself personally insulted by you're argument. It's based around me, and not the main subject
(answering about the 'foreshadowing' prophecies). How is that not an attack?

If you have read the Bible and are familiar with it, you know that as a non-Christian you are spiritually dead.

What I follow as the Bible, and what you follow as the bible are completely different Scriptures.
Just because I happen to be 'spiritually dead', it does no good to announce it.

Explaining things which are spiritually perceived to a person who is spiritually dead is an exercise in futility.

It's only futile because the questions require concrete answers, not the 'fact' that I'm 'spiritually dead'.
Unless you can provide the concrete answers, this whole thread would lack any futility.

Furthermore, I was an atheist for longer than you have been on this earth.

Then you should have no problem answering the questions I've given, seeing as how you've returned backed too theological 'knowledge'.

I know that defending/discussing the validity of the Bible with an atheist or an agnostic is pointless, another exercise in futility.

That would depend on the individual you're discussing with, not the discussion. For instance, I'm seriously confused about the NT but I'm not just going to accept it instantly without some reasoning and shared understanding (which requires cooperation from theists). The subject here isn't the validity of the Bible, it's what criteria is used in identifying 'foreshadowing' prophecies, how are they fulfilled, what makes them more acceptable then the usual messianic verses, and a few other things. Why you're calling these 'exercises' futile, I have no idea. Former full-time nihilist as well? that's quiet sad, but no need to use reduction in calling this entire thing 'pointless' or 'futile' when it's not.

If you are really reading through the Bible, that is good.

I spend time with it often, surely.

By all means continue, if you are really doing this.

I am, it's just not a constant part of my daily life.

At least you'll be better educated than most people your age, and that will be to your credit.

Were you planning on discrediting me? I don't see why.

Unfortunately, understanding the Bible is beyond your ability right now.

I agree. I haven't had many problems understanding it lately though.

Perhaps God will grant you the gift of faith if you ask for it. Good luck.

Thanks?
~SC

Evidence for God from Science

Foreshadowing?

Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?

Re: Foreshadowing?