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How do we know
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:48 pm
by waynebo
if we are choosen?"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
Re: How do we know
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:28 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
waynebo wrote:if we are choosen?"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
How do we know?
Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. -Pr 20:11
...Ye shall know them by their fruits Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? -Mt 7:16, see also Mt 12:33
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree brig forth good fruit. Lk 6:43, read also verses 44-45
So, what you produce around you will be the witness to yourself that you are saved. This is not by
your actions, for that would be only filthy rags, but by the Spirit working through you:
I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit... Jn 15:1-2
So, unless you are saved and then immediately die, there would be a gradual purging/pruning/sanctification of your life through time. This is not something you are doing - so that you may not boast - it is the Spirit doing this in you,
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same brigeth forth much fruit: for without me, ye can do nothing. Jn 15:4-5
You may also want to take a look at Galatians 5:22-24 which speak of the fruit of the Spirit:
...But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance...
Does this help?
FL
Re: How do we know
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:04 pm
by waynebo
Yes it does,thanks.
This parable does not mean that God calls a lot of people, picks over them, and keeps only a few. If that were true, the middle of the parable would have no meaning. It means that God calls everyone and gives them the power to respond—but to be chosen, we must respond to the call, using the power God gave us for that purpose.
Re: How do we know
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:35 pm
by Jac3510
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:waynebo wrote:if we are choosen?"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
How do we know?
Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. -Pr 20:11
...Ye shall know them by their fruits Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? -Mt 7:16, see also Mt 12:33
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree brig forth good fruit. Lk 6:43, read also verses 44-45
So, what you produce around you will be the witness to yourself that you are saved. This is not by
your actions, for that would be only filthy rags, but by the Spirit working through you:
I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit... Jn 15:1-2
So, unless you are saved and then immediately die, there would be a gradual purging/pruning/sanctification of your life through time. This is not something you are doing - so that you may not boast - it is the Spirit doing this in you,
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same brigeth forth much fruit: for without me, ye can do nothing. Jn 15:4-5
You may also want to take a look at Galatians 5:22-24 which speak of the fruit of the Spirit:
...But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance...
Does this help?
FL
So you get your assurance by looking to your works?
Re: How do we know
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:05 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Jac3510 wrote:So you get your assurance by looking to your works?
No! I'm sorry if that is the impression you got!
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:So, what you produce around you will be the witness to yourself that you are saved.
Maybe the misunderstanding came from the above sentence. I was answering the question in the context it was posed, that is by someone who is
unsure of his imputed righteousness after coming to a saving faith. The evidence of one's repentance & rebirth is the working of the Holy Spirit in a person's life
through the works that the Spirit produces. You'll see that in the second part of the paragraph,
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:This is not by your actions, for that would be only filthy rags, but by the Spirit working through you...
Yikes! I'm not a salvation-by-works guy!
FL
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:02 am
by Jac3510
Fair enough. I want to be clear. So we get our assurance that we really do have saving faith (and thus are saved) by looking at the works the Spirit produces through us?
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:22 pm
by rodyshusband
I know that I am saved because I realize that I am not superior and have come to an understanding that only God, through Jesus Christ, can mend the divide that has come between God and myself. I now have a desire to learn more about God ("works"). The more I learn, the greater the "fruit" that is produced.
Thanks.
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:07 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Jac3510 wrote: So we get our assurance that we really do have saving faith (and thus are saved) by looking at the works the Spirit produces through us?
No. If this were the case, those who died immediately after repenting - such as the theif on the cross next to Jesus - would go to Hell
for lack of assurance. That theif's assurance came from his faith...probably. The assurance of a person who makes a deathbed repentance comes from that same faith, which is a gift of God.
What Rodyshusband said is interesting:
rodyshusband wrote:I know that I am saved because I realize that I am not superior and have come to an understanding that only God, through Jesus Christ, can mend the divide that has come between God and myself. I now have a desire to learn more about God ("works"). The more I learn, the greater the "fruit" that is produced.
Thanks.
...and it agrees with Scripture, specifically 1 Cor 1:18,
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us that are saved it is the power of God.
Indeed, having the veil lifted and
knowing that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is another sign that one is saved, that one is on the narrow path, that one is righteous before God.
FL
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:19 pm
by Jac3510
FL - You strike me as a self-consistent person, so your last response confused me.
Are you suggesting that a person just saved (i.e., the thief on the cross, or a deathbed confessor) has a different source of assurance than the one who has long been saved (i.e., a preacher of fifty years, or, say, Mother Teresa)? I can't imagine you are, but if not, then why would you say "So, what you produce around you will be the witness to yourself that you are saved. This is not by your actions, for that would be only filthy rags, but by the Spirit working through you"? Indeed, if pure faith, unaccompanied by works, can be grounds for assurance, then what role, if any, do works play in gaining that assurance?
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:21 pm
by zoegirl
All I can think of is....not again!!
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:25 pm
by Jac3510
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:30 pm
by Byblos
Yes, I myself am very much looking forward to this (
).
(sorry FL, don't mean to put you on the spot but then again I'm not, Jac is
).
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:33 pm
by zoegirl
Ohh....I think I'll just sit back and watch
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:56 pm
by cslewislover
Lol. We are saved through faith, and there are verses in the NT saying how our spirit testifies with the Lord's Spirit, so that we know. I'll have to find those. Otherwise, if we don't die right away after coming to faith, then we should be doing things through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and those will look like works. Those are just part of our Christian walk. James writes about it especially, and I believe John in his letters too. Maybe I'll have time to look some of this up . . . soon.
But, I don't mean to take any fire or fireworks out of your little debate here, Jac and FL.
Re: How do we know
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:59 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Jac3510 wrote:FL - You strike me as a self-consistent person, so your last response confused me.
My responses are consistent. The first answer I gave had a context:
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: I was answering the question in the context it was posed, that is by someone who is unsure of his imputed righteousness after coming to a saving faith.
Some people, because of their personality - or whatever - are worried about whether they are saved or not. Just like a hypochondriac who worries even while in good health. When you show the hypochondriac that he is well, he will move on to another imagined illness.
So it is with imputed righteousness. Some people - for whatever reason - will never be satisfied with what God says about salvation. They will constantly worry about whether they have it or not. And maybe they don't by virtue of their doubt.
I guess a hypochondriac could be considered
ill by virtue of his obsession with imagined illness. Now, can a person who thinks he's saved really be saved if he doubts his salvation?
Are you a spiritual hypochondriac, Jac3510?
FL
