Evidence for God from Science

I'm new to this board, so please bear with me if this is a question that has already been addressed.

One thing about Christianity that I can't get my head around is who created Satan? God created everything, yes?

I know the argument that Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel. But if God created everything, and nothing is separate from God, then God created Lucifer, yes? And we don't assume that God created angels with free will as he created man (or else what would be the point of creating man if He had already created beings with free will?). SO, how did Lucifer possess the free will in which to rebel against God?

Satan is a created being. God created him.

What basis do you have bibically to assume that angels do not have a free will sufficient to rebel? It appears to me that that is the core of the contradiction you're seeing.

Raised up a level what you're expressing is sometimes called a theodicy. The more difficult question I think, raises above Satan as the instrument for the introduction of evil and how God as omnipotent and omniscient would allow evil to be introduced into the world.

Is that what you're wrestling with?

Sure. Let's stick to that for now. Why would a god who is omniscient and omnipotent create beings knowing they would choose to rebel (in the cases of both Lucifer and Eve)? That's a big enough question. (but it begs the question that if the angels had free will and some chose to rebel, what lesson did God learn from THAT experience? Surely he would have realized that beings with free will have the tendency to become corrupted no matter how good your intentions are. Why repeat the same mistakes with humans that were already proven by the angelic rebellion???)

Reagan 1984 wrote:Sure. Let's stick to that for now. Why would a god who is omniscient and omnipotent create beings knowing they would choose to rebel (in the cases of both Lucifer and Eve)? That's a big enough question. (but it begs the question that if the angels had free will and some chose to rebel, what lesson did God learn from THAT experience? Surely he would have realized that beings with free will have the tendency to become corrupted no matter how good your intentions are. Why repeat the same mistakes with humans that were already proven by the angelic rebellion???)

By the way, I should have welcomed you first. Glad you are here and welcome.

Do you see the contradiction in what you're saying above. How can you assume in the first place that God is omniscient and knew that Lucifer (and 1/3 of the angels who joined if you look at more of the detail in the Bible) and Eve would choose to rebel on the one hand and then ask what lesson God would learn? Wouldn't you have to assume that God knew the result and yet chose for reasons of His own to proceed anyway? Omniscience "learning" is a contrradiction in terms, is it not?

Hello Reagan 1984 and welcome.

Reagan 1984 wrote:...I can't get my head around is who created Satan?

Well just do that... look at it the other way aroud! Lets say that Satan has been the creator before God. You think that he would have permitted God to be? No way. God created all things including Satan and he, Satan, decided that he was God, and made his own creation. Then God who is all mighty sent his Son to make an arrangement between God, Him (Jesus) (physically and spiritually) with us (true the Holy Spirit). And the best part of it is that it has nothing to do with religions.

But then since you are not a Christian, you may only look at this your way around, while you have the privilege and the freedom to look at it in another way and make your own jugement.

Victor

That is my question--the question of omniscience. I realize that what I said is a contradiction. If God created everything, specifically the cases of Satan and Eve, he knew they would rebel, yes? I guess we should just stick to Satan for now, because I understand the argument about why God would create man knowing he would rebel against him. But wait--now I'm just confusing myself. Why on earth would God do this? Here are the confusing points:

1. God created Adam and Eve with free will, and he put temptation into the garden of Eden. But, if God is omniscient, then he knew the choice they would make, even before they made it. Thus, God knew of the fall, knew of the sacrifice HE would ultimately have to make down the line with Jesus, knew the whole story, etc. So.. what's the point? Why punish his creations for making a decision he already knew they would make? If God is omniscient, doesn't that confuse the nature of true free will?

2. God made the serpent, just as he made Adam and Eve. And, if the serpent is Satan, he made Satan with free will as well, yes? Because Satan was able to make the choice to rebel against God, which leads me to believe that Satan has free will as well. SO.. why make Satan? Satan precedes Adam and Eve.. he is not human, yes?

This makes no sense to me. And I'm not on here just to ruffle some feathers and say "nah nah nah nah nah".. I am honestly just wanting to understand how anyone has made sense of this, because I can't find the rational behind it.

Why not create creatures with free will, even if some go bad? Giving us free will is a loving thing to do, and God wants our free will love from us. You can trust God in knowing that what He did, even knowing that evil would be a partial result, was the best thing with the end in mind. If we never sinned, and Jesus never came to save us, maybe we would never have been glorified (which we will be in heaven). By the way, Jesus came to be our new Adam, not our new Eve.

This answer made me stop and think for a long time.. it makes sense! So, thank you!

Reagan 1984 wrote:This answer made me stop and think for a long time.. it makes sense! So, thank you!

I think it makes sense too. I think too that it's also important to allow for some element of God's purpose to not necessarily be completely clear to us in all instances. If you accept that God exists, the he is omnipotent, omniscient and not bound by the restrictions and limitations that we experience, then you have to allow as well that in some regards we will not share in the reasons God has for what He does unless He chooses to reveal them to us and even then, there may be limits on what we can understand of those reasons by virtue of God's nature and attributes extending beyong ours.

That being the case, I believe God has revealed Himself in at least 3 manners. One is general and by virtue of His "fingerprints" upon the creation, which is of course, a primary focus of this board. Secondly, He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ who is God incarnate and yet fully human and it is through Jesus Christ that we can best understand God's nature and love. Thirdly, He has revealed Himself through the Bible which is the inspired word of God.

Intellectually, these are all important things to grasp and understand but ultimately, a purely intellectual approach to God is unsatisfying. The amazing and wonderful thing is that for reasons that I can't ultimately reconcile or fully grasp, God's love and purposes for us are so great that He has created us, given us free will, allowed evil as the consequence of our rebellion, provided Christ as the solution to our problem, and desires to enter into a loving relationship with us if we choose to do so.

That's the good news.

Reagan 1984 wrote:This answer made me stop and think for a long time.. it makes sense! So, thank you!

Wow and yay! Thanks. Canuckster's is a more formal expansion, lol. Hope to see you post some more on the board.

Interesting question. God created Satan as one of the four original Archangels of God, given more power and responsibility then the other angels. Satan had free will just like man but the difference was man was created mortal and the angels immortal. The angels were created as ministering spirits to the saints (Hebrews 1:14) ie to mankind and Christians will judge the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). Satan rejected his servitude, rebelled and wanted to be equal to God. That was when Lucifer became Satan. The other 3 archangels are Michael, Raphael and Gabriel.

Isaiah 14:12-15
'How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High, But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit."

Some other Q&As are on my blog http://qandaongod.blogspot.com using scripture to answer questions.
Please let me know what you think and feel free to pass it on to others.
JT

It is interesting to note that sin entered the world when a theological discussion was held without God present. (eve and serpent)

It is a dangerous thing to talk "about" God.

jlay wrote:It is interesting to note that sin entered the world when a theological discussion was held without God present. (eve and serpent)

It is a dangerous thing to talk "about" God.

And assume he's not listening (I would add).

I would also like to agree with cslewislover and add my opinion.

God made this creation to be temporary because He foreknew that both men and angels were going to sin. In the eternal and perfect creation (Rev. 21 and 22) there will be no more sin (2 Peter 3:13 and Rev. 21:27), because the only ones there (men and angels) will have already subjected themselves to the Lord in this creation.