Evidence for God from Science

Searched the forum didnt really find this but i always wonder whether it's a bad thing - sin - to download stuff using torrents, LimeWire and other similar things. Today it's common to just "get the stuff for free" without bothering to pay for it. In one way could be seen as very bad and in other it's so common. A film comes out a few hours it's on the net to be downloaded!! Some put some of their music for free downloads, some u have to pay for. Today though a lot of the stuff is found on things like Youtube etc or stream for free - so, if it is OK to stream legally why should it be bad to download stuff and listen to it when not on the website??
SOme countries are soo popular for stuff like illegal WOW servers etc because people dont like to pay for stuff they can have free... Then is this wrong and a sin?
Me personally i dont play any online games... but couldnt imagine myself now without starting downloading the music i have! Years ago i was so unknowledged; now i learned a lot about other countries' music, style etc and thank God for showing me this. Not much is christian music, but most of it is good stuff and yes some death metal etc btu the idea is i learned a lot of stuff, came to knew new bands etc mainly the "underground" ones which i would otherwise not known of. And yes, i'm into the stuff one has to dig deeper than the daily and international western stuff you hear play for a few months and then it somehow disappears because everyone gets fed up with it...

Yes, i admit it would be a sin if the stuff i have - if i started making money from it. But back where im from we share, copy from person to person, exchange etc and we learn something new about a country etc. The company nor the band gets anything but we're giving them free publicity (sort of! ).
But as long as it's within these limits - is it wrong?? that's my question. I know; the fact that many do it doesn't make it less wrong (such as drugs, sex outside marriage, bad lifestyles) but it's sort of more acceptable. I never thought of this as a potential sin or bad thing but lately i felt somehow insecure about this (noticed my moral standards have been rising!!) and so wonder what stance to take on this... thanks a lot Hope God helps me and those who do likewise to see the light!

The way I would think about it wouldbe to remove the ease with which you can dowload it and think back to when you would go to somebody'd concert. Would you think it is taking advantage of htem to sneak into the concert without paying? If so, then you are taking advantage of them by downloading material from the web without paying for it. YOu wouldn't steal the record or tape or CD or DVD from a store but people think it is ok to steal from the web.

Especially since it is so easy to get it form itunes or a legit site and for a relatively inexpensively.

Yeah good analogy. Though, a sin necessarily? It is easily accessible. Also, the facts i mentioned (it can be streamed for FREE on websites such as YT or others) or apparently u can stream on itunes for free - but pay when listen not on computer - well... what's the point? If it is wrong/sin what is it? The idea? Surely streaming for free doesn not give the company/bands money or does it? And when we download for free that doesnt but they sort of have free publicity... OK then for example buying a CD/DVD and watching with a band of people - is that OK?

I personally have stopped downloading music from online and watching movies and shows online (with the exception of a few websites that have contracts allowing them to stream film, such as IMDb) when I started raising these same questions. The problem was not so much that I saw it as stealing as it was justr the fact that it is illegal, and we are told to obey the law. If the laws were changed I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

That said, I do think the intellectual property right laws need serious revision. Do you realize that under the same laws it is actually illegal to post an image of a film scene except under certain circumstances? I've seen people on this site who are technically breaking the law by putting copyrighted material in their avatars. I mention this not to draw attention to these other posters, but to the stupidness of some of these laws. I don't think it should be illegal to use a picture or maybe a small scene from a film as long as you're not making money off of it, but I can understand why they would want to keep the entire thing as a whole banned.

If you want free music, try this site. They have a contract allowing them to provide music legally and have a pretty decent selection:

http://www.spiralfrog.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpiralFrog

Thanks for the site... well im on public comp now. Thing is, it there says "Sorry downloading or streaming aren`t available in your country" ok that's quite disappointing!
Then again i see the point - it is a free website; the thing is they have ads which should attract people to go there etc. But the essence - isnt it almost the same? Torrents for example also have ads (many of them!) and so when you use torrents searches such as isohunt.com or others there are ads i believe. Now - so what makes a thing wrong? just because it's against the law? OK let's say i'm a weed user and my country changes the law to more strict - should i stop just because the law says so!? I mean, if something just becomes legal - does it mean it's better? Let's say they do make something legal - that doesn't make it good does it?! If they say something is no longer against the law - doesnt necessarily mean it's good...
At the end, whether we copy it illegally from a friend, send over IM, send over email, download legally or illegally it is the same thing - software... let's say someone can't be bothered doing it like this - which would be legal; instead he gets his stuff from somewhere else... at the end, the result is the same...

The laws as you said are ridiculous at times because we know no more what we should copy and not. And if they don't allow you to publish e.g. pictures etc - why bother? We give them free publicity by doing that; so they should be happy and not complain...

Then, if theres stuff like spiralfrog for FREE why some people still bother BUYING their stuff? That's another thing. I know many people are strict on this and say they prefer everything original and not copies.

And besides, apparently downloading in Switzerland is legal but sharing is not. SO, does it then mean whenever i want something i should go to CH and do it there?
And, if for example the site hasn't got the type of music (i doubt it has slovak stuff!) then should i just go for what's available? i mean, as i mentioned before i am more into more underground stuff...

Then is this thing a sin and something bad? I mean, back in SK i know bunch of catholics christians and yes we do that... occasionally they buy something (like because i got stuff for free and then my friend liked Coldplay so he actually got their CD! - so, ny free publicity he made them get money ). Yes we are big there on downloading and illegal WOW servers and other things regardless whether they are christian or not (because i dont really know anyone who doesnt do it; and even in CH and overhere ppl download - it's big in US as well i heard).

Anyway hope God shows us the way to go

madscientist wrote:Thanks for the site... well im on public comp now. Thing is, it there says "Sorry downloading or streaming aren`t available in your country" ok that's quite disappointing!
Then again i see the point - it is a free website; the thing is they have ads which should attract people to go there etc. But the essence - isnt it almost the same? Torrents for example also have ads (many of them!) and so when you use torrents searches such as isohunt.com or others there are ads i believe.

The revenue generated by those adverts go straight into the torrent company's pockets (illegal) whereas SpiralFrog and other such web sites use the advertising revenue to buy the songs legitimately (legal).

Also your computer's IP address can be tracked for downloading illegal music.

Seriously, what really is wrong with iTunes?

Aah i see
Well u say what's wrong with iTunes - noone i know here uses it lol (here in SK i mean). Besides, you pay for every song you want to have. Why not get something for free if you can do it - why pay if can have it for free? - thats the typical argument. Besides, if u get stuff for free and you dont like it you dont regret much including games and films, but if you ay for it and THEN realize what you got doesnt please you - what then?
I asked a priest here he said there's some new law which came out that we are allowed to download stuff for our own purposes - personal use but not to sell it - what view i held even before. But nevertheless i stopped downloading; at uni we cant use torrents and limewire and similar things and so I'm graceful to God He made me have what i currently have for free and I want to be thankful to Him for that - and yes i did share with other people - though, doesn't that then mean I'm not egoistic as i share what i have?

But i see your point, though.

Meanwhile the artists are not getting their due...their have created something, we should pay for it, unless they speciically say so.

SURE! I agree. But then how come websites even put to download stuff for free and that theres stuff like spiralfrog someone had mentioned before? Do they get money out of that? If they do that's great we don't pay but they still get their due. Yes ok we can watch stuff from Youtube or similar things, but do they get anything? doubt it, but it still makes them popular.

Thing is, even if we dont pay for it sometimes we end up giving them free publicity and then others get it - one of my friends got a coldplay CD like a year or so after i gave him bunch of songs for free And everyone knows that when they start being a band/singer not 100% of people are gonna pay for the stuff. Hmm then how does the new law i heard about tie in this? Maybe it's just SK i dont know but if it were true, how would that be OK? Is it that many people do it so they said it's OK to do as long as it's personal use?

madscientist wrote:SURE! I agree. But then how come websites even put to download stuff for free and that theres stuff like spiralfrog someone had mentioned before? Do they get money out of that? If they do that's great we don't pay but they still get their due. Yes ok we can watch stuff from Youtube or similar things, but do they get anything? doubt it, but it still makes them popular.

Thing is, even if we dont pay for it sometimes we end up giving them free publicity and then others get it - one of my friends got a coldplay CD like a year or so after i gave him bunch of songs for free And everyone knows that when they start being a band/singer not 100% of people are gonna pay for the stuff. Hmm then how does the new law i heard about tie in this? Maybe it's just SK i dont know but if it were true, how would that be OK? Is it that many people do it so they said it's OK to do as long as it's personal use?

Web sites like SpiralFrog work like this: the revenue generated by adverts goes toward the artists. Advertising web sites pay around $30 per 1000 people that download a song.

iTunes works like this: the revenue generated by the song downloads fee goes toward the artists. At $0.69 per track, for every 1000 people that download a song $690. Plus extra revenue generated by advertising, that comes to about $720.

$30 vs, $720? Doesn't take someone with a business degree to work out where the money lies. Record companies only lease a few tracks to free web sites like SpiralFrog to promote the music and encourage people to buy the track. So while the idea of an advert-funded free music web site is great, it'd never take off in real life.

And the law you're talking about doesn't exist. You MUST aquire songs only in ways that the artists/ record companies mandate. Anything else and you're breaking the law, simple as.

aha i see

Well i cant say bout the law, priest in my home town said something about it. i dono whether it encompasses SK only or more - i think it's former - but yes i know what you are saying. Thing is, such downloading is soooo common in SK only a few people actually buy the thing; and no-one uses iTunes there, some people even don't know it! now that goes whether they're atheist or catholic or other christian or young or older or not. does that mean we're hypocritical then?

OK, but would using spiralfrog be totally OK? I mean, it's legal, so there shouldnt be any issues, right??

madscientist wrote:aha i see

Well i cant say bout the law, priest in my home town said something about it. i dono whether it encompasses SK only or more - i think it's former - but yes i know what you are saying. Thing is, such downloading is soooo common in SK only a few people actually buy the thing; and no-one uses iTunes there, some people even don't know it! now that goes whether they're atheist or catholic or other christian or young or older or not. does that mean we're hypocritical then?

OK, but would using spiralfrog be totally OK? I mean, it's legal, so there shouldnt be any issues, right??

Yep, Spiralfrog is akin to trying out free samples at the supermarket. Perfectly okay.

Spiralfrog went out of business in March.

Yeah exactly! Wanted to post that but someone was faster
Though, i had a look on how it worked - and yeah it's a lot of fuss... apparently license had to be renewed every 60 days, then it could not be copied elsewhere etc. Some software or something was needed to put it on mp3 players etc.

Besides, those users familiar with iTunes - once you download (buy) a song then can you copy it on mp3's, can you copy it elsere e.g. external drive, USB etc?

Moreover, came across a SK website - not kidding but website! - that allows free listening, and also DOWNLOADING of stuff! i was surprised to find some really "underground" stuff as someone refers to it - not that well know in the "western" world. Well, i just checked it and it's still there, existing; so far 50000 downlaods have been made. I didnt download anything for the purpose of questioning it; had this been a year ago or so I alone would make a thousand! Question is, is this legal? Doubt it! I mean, then, if it is not then how come no-one came across it and got rid of it? Or do bands get their money? Dont think so! SO then, how come not even a program must be used such as torrents, limewire etc but a website alone is suffieicent for the wntire world to access and take free songs? If illegal how come no-one managed to get rid of it? Does it mean that either authorities dont care, or that it's "okay"? I mean, theres bunch of rubbish on the net such as porn etc - these things are sinful, but not illegal... ilegitimate downloading is... illegal but... sinful? That's what i wonder.
Anyway, during summer I plan to thoroughly discuss this with a priest back at home; hope God enables me to understand this as well as other things... (and then share with others! )