Evidence for God from Science

I read this interesting comment that if true might prove a YEC model that little bit more harder to believe...

One second used to be defined as 1/86,400 the length of a day. However, Earth's rotation isn't perfectly reliable. Tidal friction from the sun and moon slows our planet and increases the length of a day by 3 milli­seconds per century.

If true this means that in the time of the dinosaurs, the day was just 23 hours long.

So instead of 24 hours per day to create stuff in creation week, the YEC has 23 hours or less in the day to get it all done.

Provided this little factoid is actually true of course.

The problem potentially with that sort of extrapolation is that it assumes that the rate cited is constant and that no other factors impacted the outcome over that period of time.

That's actually one of my beefs with several of the "proofs" offered by YEC proponents in several other areas. So, I'd be inconsistent if I didn't point that out.

There is some irony however, I suppose, in turning this type "proof" back on those who use them in other contexts.

Sorry you said it slows the earth, not speeds it up. So 65 million years ago the rotation would have been faster. I seriously doubt the rotation speed is changing.

I don't think it matters too much, as I don't think the loss of an hour makes that big of a deal, but just to go to your point anyway . . . you do realize that a YECer would not have to answer your objection at all, right? The loss of the hour would only happen on an OEC time scale. On the YEC time scale, the day would have been 300 milliseconds shorter. Not quite so problematic, is it?

Add into that further that the Israelites travelling in the desert during the Exodus (when I believe Genesis was generally written) would not have thought in terms of the precision of milliseconds. That's an example of a common type of eisogesis where we read the passage elevating our frame of reference over the frame of reference of the original audience to try and draw conclusions that most likely were never intended by the original human writer nor understood by the original listeners or readers.

Jac3510 wrote:I don't think it matters too much, as I don't think the loss of an hour makes that big of a deal, but just to go to your point anyway . . . you do realize that a YECer would not have to answer your objection at all, right? The loss of the hour would only happen on an OEC time scale. On the YEC time scale, the day would have been 300 milliseconds shorter. Not quite so problematic, is it?

If the YECer held to a very strict 24 hour day, I mean exactly 24 HOURS then yeh it would be a problem. I know people who call a day in Genesis 24 hours, nothing more and nothing less. If it were it wouldn't be a 'day'.

Jad wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:I don't think it matters too much, as I don't think the loss of an hour makes that big of a deal, but just to go to your point anyway . . . you do realize that a YECer would not have to answer your objection at all, right? The loss of the hour would only happen on an OEC time scale. On the YEC time scale, the day would have been 300 milliseconds shorter. Not quite so problematic, is it?

If the YECer held to a very strict 24 hour day, I mean exactly 24 HOURS then yeh it would be a problem. I know people who call a day in Genesis 24 hours, nothing more and nothing less. If it were it wouldn't be a 'day'.

That would be a strawman however. YEC's use the phrase 24 hours to just mean a standard solar day. Hebrews thought of a day from sunset to sunset and by that definition there could conceivably only be 2 exact 24 hour days a year as seasonal change differences of about 4 minutes a day occured as a normal matter of course.

Hehe yeh I see your point.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Hebrews thought of a day from sunset to sunset and by that definition there could conceivably only be 2 exact 24 hour days a year as seasonal change differences of about 4 minutes a day occured as a normal matter of course.

All days are exactly the same length "from sunset to sunset". From sunrise to sunset is a different matter, of course.

waynepii wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Hebrews thought of a day from sunset to sunset and by that definition there could conceivably only be 2 exact 24 hour days a year as seasonal change differences of about 4 minutes a day occured as a normal matter of course.

All days are exactly the same length "from sunset to sunset". From sunrise to sunset is a different matter, of course.

Even at the north and south pole or points closer to?
.
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waynepii wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Hebrews thought of a day from sunset to sunset and by that definition there could conceivably only be 2 exact 24 hour days a year as seasonal change differences of about 4 minutes a day occured as a normal matter of course.

All days are exactly the same length "from sunset to sunset". From sunrise to sunset is a different matter, of course.

Wayne, I don't intend to embarrass you, but that is wrong. It varies depending upon the latitude of the location being examined, and how close the day is to the spring or fall equinox as to what the precise difference would be. Sunset is not at the same time every evening. It can vary from the day before by about 30 seconds to a minute or so. So even measuring from sunset to sunset, the length of a day varies because the sun is setting a few minutes earlier or later than it did the day before depending upon whether the daylight hours are waxing or waning.

Go here http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php and create a sunrise and sunset table for wherever you want and you'll see that to be the case. Measuring from sunrise to sunset doubles the impact because as daylight duration lengthens it has roughly equal impact both in terms of sunrise coming earlier and sunset coming later, but even measuring from sunset to sunset the impact is there at about half the net total of sunlight total change. If you need more explanation then let me know and I'll spell it out more clearly for you.

That wasn't a concern of a non-precise non-technological culture such as the Hebrews.

What else might you be mistaken about in this regard, my brother?

Canuckster1127 wrote:

waynepii wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Hebrews thought of a day from sunset to sunset and by that definition there could conceivably only be 2 exact 24 hour days a year as seasonal change differences of about 4 minutes a day occured as a normal matter of course.

All days are exactly the same length "from sunset to sunset". From sunrise to sunset is a different matter, of course.

Wayne, I don't intend to embarrass you, but that is wrong. It varies depending upon the latitude of the location being examined, and how close the day is to the spring or fall equinox as to what the precise difference would be. Sunset is not at the same time every evening. It can vary from the day before by about 30 seconds to a minute or so. So even measuring from sunset to sunset, the length of a day varies because the sun is setting a few minutes earlier or later than it did the day before depending upon whether the daylight hours are waxing or waning.

Go here http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php and create a sunrise and sunset table for wherever you want and you'll see that to be the case. Measuring from sunrise to sunset doubles the impact because as daylight duration lengthens it has roughly equal impact both in terms of sunrise coming earlier and sunset coming later, but even measuring from sunset to sunset the impact is there at about half the net total of sunlight total change. If you need more explanation then let me know and I'll spell it out more clearly for you.

That wasn't a concern of a non-precise non-technological culture such as the Hebrews.

What else might you be mistaken about in this regard, my brother?

You're right, I was thinking about the earth's rotation (sidereal day) - sorry.

No apology necessary. I've made mistakes like that myself as well at times.

I don't think it makes a difference at all really in terms of the YEC OEC discussion, but it does illustrate that even in the context of the length of the days in a YEC position, assuming that the same conditions existed in the days of creation that exist now, the days were not exactly the same by the measure the culture used that Genesis was written to going from sunset to sunset.

Is that a big deal? No not really. But if the "yom" used in that context shows some variation then why is it a big deal given that yom can mean a period of time longer than a day to admit that too?

If you hold to 24-hour days then you should read Ps. 104:20-23. This is a commentary on the creation in which God is praised for what He did and how the creation still reveals His greatness. These verses show that if you take verses like Ex. 20:11 as exact analogies (as far as the length of a yom) then you only have twelve hours to get things done. Evening is a rest period. Only during the day is work done.

That really makes Gen. 2 (the sixth day) hard to swallow.
There are no wild plants because there has been no rain (vs. 5)
God sends a rain cloud to water the land (vs. 6)
Then God formed man, the cultivator (vs. 7)
Then God plants a garden and it grows and produces food (vs. 9)
Adam has to name a bunch of animals (vs. 19)
Adam realizes he is lonely and there is no mate for him (vs. 20)
Adam is put to sleep and Eve is formed (vs. 21-22)
Adam's words, upon seeing Eve, indicate it had been a long time (vs. 23)
Chapter 3 may well be part of this day.

dayage wrote:[Ps. 104:20-23] is a commentary on the creation in which God is praised for what He did and how the creation still reveals His greatness.

For the record, "na-uh"