Evidence for God from Science

I love the Lord but a friend of mine is trying to get me to see that my actions are directly indicative of my character, but I disagree.
Sometimes I lie, and I know that lying is wrong but just because I make a mistake doesn't mean that I am sinful.
I don't think that I am a sinner because of what I do. And I don't think that a persons character can be judged based on what they do.

Saul wrote:I love the Lord but a friend of mine is trying to get me to see that my actions are directly indicative of my character, but I disagree.
Sometimes I lie, and I know that lying is wrong but just because I make a mistake doesn't mean that I am sinful.
I don't think that I am a sinner because of what I do. And I don't think that a persons character can be judged based on what they do.

This is an interesting post, and you may get a ton of responses. Do you mean that you're now righteous, so you should no longer be considered a "sinner"? And do you mean that just because you do something wrong sometimes, because you sin sometimes, that you shouldn't be considered a sinner, but a righteous person with good character? I think it's true that you can't judge a person's overall character on occasional mistakes or sins; we all do those. But I would like you to explain in more detail.

You don't think you are a sinner because of what you do? Hmm . . .

• If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:6

SO . . . the Bible says you do sin. If not by what you do, then by what?

Then, you have James 4:17

• Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

Here, sin is directly tied to doing.

Anyway . . . I don't know that this is even the point you are making, so would you do me the favor of more clearly defining what you mean by "character" and "sin"?

Saul wrote:I love the Lord but a friend of mine is trying to get me to see that my actions are directly indicative of my character, but I disagree.
Sometimes I lie, and I know that lying is wrong but just because I make a mistake doesn't mean that I am sinful.
I don't think that I am a sinner because of what I do. And I don't think that a persons character can be judged based on what they do.

Well, at the most basic level, our actions *are* directly related to our character, so much so that Christ died for us. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.

But, I would also agree that this demands more explanation.

Well I feel like because I love God with all my heart that what I do regardless of whether its good or bad is not a complete representation of my moral character.

Saul wrote:Well I feel like because I love God with all my heart that what I do regardless of whether its good or bad is not a complete representation of my moral character.

I hope you don't mind my asking but, how would you define your moral character in a complete sense?
The reason I ask is, no matter how hard we try, we still sin.
When we sin, we are being a slave to sin, and our true selves are reflected.
When we refuse to sin, we are reflecting what Christ has done with us.

Saul wrote:I love the Lord but a friend of mine is trying to get me to see that my actions are directly indicative of my character, but I disagree.
Sometimes I lie, and I know that lying is wrong but just because I make a mistake doesn't mean that I am sinful.
I don't think that I am a sinner because of what I do. And I don't think that a persons character can be judged based on what they do.

So, if someone brutally murdered your family, you wouldn't think that their actions are indicative of their character? Come on now.

What do you call someone who lies? A liar. God hates liars. Proverbs 6: 17,19
Rev. 21:8 says "All liars will have their part in the lake of fire."

Christians are certainly capable of sinning, I don't think that can be questioned. However, there is a difference in stumbling into sin, and habitual sinning. If a professed Christian sins and does not experience Godly sorrow, then yes, I would have to tell them to "examine themselves to see if they are in the faith."

As stated before, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:6

What is a Christian? Are we not to be a demonstration of the living God. Is that not what we were created for? His glory. And God said we will be His witnesses. Why? because He is living in us. So, when we lie, what are we saying about God? That He is a liar.

You say, "I love the Lord."
Jesus says, "If you love me, OBEY my commands." The love of God is not an emotion.

I assure you that only sinners can be saved. So, if you don't think you are a sinner, then you are most certainly not saved.
Paul said, that "by the Law is the knowledge of sin." Here is God's Law.

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Examine yourself and see how you have done. Have you kept the commandments? If you have lied, then God sees you as a liar, and will give you justice on judgment day. God doesn't want that, and neither do I. God loved you so much He made a way for your lying to be forgiven. Repent of your sins, and place your trust in Christ alone. His Holy Spirit will fill you and give you the desire to truly love and obey Him. Apart from Christ you can do nothing.

jlay wrote:FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Now you know this was done away with and/or it's only for the Jew, right?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

jlay wrote:FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Now you know this was done away with and/or it's only for the Jew, right?
.
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Thanks for pointing that out, BW. I didn't want to have to get on to him for that myself . .. .

Saul - let me take a different approach for a second. Let me go ahead an grant your premise that your actions don't display your moral character. What, then, are you saying of your moral character. Do you think you are inherently good?

Last time I read the bible it still had 10 commands.
And I find it odd that the one commandment God told us to "remember" would be the only one we are supposed to forget.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. James 2:10 says if you keep the whole law and stumble at one point you are guilty of breaking all of it.

But thanks for straining the gnat guys.

Do you think you are inherently good?

BavarianWheels wrote:

jlay wrote:FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Now you know this was done away with and/or it's only for the Jew, right?
.
.

Do you think you are inherently good?

Proverbs 20:6 Most men will proclaim each his own goodness,
But who can find a faithful man?

jlay wrote:Last time I read the bible it still had 10 commands.
And I find it odd that the one commandment God told us to "remember" would be the only one we are supposed to forget.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. James 2:10 says if you keep the whole law and stumble at one point you are guilty of breaking all of it.

But thanks for straining the gnat guys.

Do you think you are inherently good?

BavarianWheels wrote:

jlay wrote:FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Now you know this was done away with and/or it's only for the Jew, right?
.
.

Do you think you are inherently good?

Proverbs 20:6 Most men will proclaim each his own goodness,
But who can find a faithful man?

Oh how I so bad want to press this point, but for the sake of the OP, I'll let it slide.

And Pro 20:6 is good, but I was more thinking along the lines of Matt 19:17.

Yes, the rich young ruler is one of my favorites.

Saul should very much know that the scriptures are very specific in addressing his questions. Prevenient grace at work.

Maybe a Sabbath thread would be in order.

joel

If that passage is one of your favorites, you should enjoy this paper on it. This man has a gift for taking the complicated and making it simple. I've heard him say more than once, "Say it in the truest and fewest words."

Thanks for the link.


How relevant this is to the question Saul asked.

Imagine if someone came up to us today and asked, "how can I inherit the kingdom of God?" We'd probably say, "repeat this prayer after me." Then we'd start em teaching a Sunday school class. Not so with Jesus.

I am still amazed in my own life, how Jesus is constantly asking me questions. And it usually involves the area of sacrifice. I've found that to follow Christ requires us to respond in areas where we are to loose ourselves from this dying world. Comfort is a big one people rarely think of. Where is our comfort to be? In Christ. Yet, I'd say many nominal Christians find there comfort in the world. And fail to follow Christ because they are unwilling to sell their comfort.

Was it money Jesus asked the ruler to give up, or his love of money. In saying that he had kept the commandments since his youth, Jesus exposes that he has failed to keep even the 1st. That he had not one God, but loved his money as a god. Parallel this to Zaccheus and you see the result Jesus desired. But Jesus did not simply respond to his question and ask him to give up his money. He first asked the young man a very probative question. "Why do you call me good?" And then He asked him if he'd kept the commands. The young mans answer reveals a lot. His response is flippant. "Sure, I've kept those since I was a kid." The Law was not a schoolmaster to him. (Gal 3:24) It is the Law that is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. “By the Law is the knowledge of sin.” He had no knowledge of sin, and therefore the hard stony ground of his heart was a place where the seed of the gospel could find no purchase. "God resist the proud, and gives grace to the humble."

Who hasn't had to sell something to follow Christ? You might have to sell your relationships, your comfort, your idols, your time, your sexual habits, etc. Whatever is keeping your heart from him. There's too much to gain to lose.

I do believe I am under conviction. Amen!