Evidence for God from Science

My first post. Nice to meet you all! I have been reading the website for a while now and the forums too and I wanted to join in with the discussions.

Here's my current thinking for today:

I've been researching alot recently into creation and the whole debate around whether genesis fits into our current scientific understanding. I've also been reading the different creation theories and the arguments and evidence for each and I've come to this conclusion: doing this is essentially a waste of time that devotes my energies away from what really matters. It seemed very important to me at the outset but the more I research the more I seem to see it as a waste of energy.

I suppose my reasoning behind why I looked into the genesis creation account was that it looked on the surface as if science could have disproved genesis, which would mean how could I trust the rest of the bible to be true if genesis was wrong? But... I know as a Christian through my own experiences and through revelation from the Holy Spirit that what the bible says is true. Whether the world was made in six 24-hour periods where somehow time was stretched/distorted or the days instead refer to ages not 24-hour periods or <insert other theory here>, these are all just moot arguments. I believe all these different viewpoints create further schisms within the church and cause us to focus ourselves away from God and faith in Him and instead cause us to focus on ourselves and trying to prove the bible to be real. It also encourages us to get involved in intellectual arguments/discussions with athiests rather than demonstrating the love and power of Christ.

Also, I was thinking: Why am I trying to match facts to faith? What am I scared of? Is faith not enough? Am I only secure in my salvation and faith if I can somehow reconcile what I believe to the wisdom and knowledge of secular man. 1 Cor 1:17-25 is a basis for my thoughts.

What do you think? Are these types of discussions about creation, did noah's flood happen etc. more harmful than good?

Welcome Keefy,

I appreciate your introduction and your thoughts.

I tend to agree with you the creationism in one sense is a secondary issue in many regards. It's certainly not cardinal in the sense that belief in one direction or another is in and of itself a basis of salvation. Some hearing that however, will argue that it is vitally important because the basis of interpretation one brings to Genesis will have impact on how one reads the entire Bible and thereforce the foundation of those issues are cardinal are effected. I don't agree with that argument, but some will make it.

Where it is an issue however, is with unbelievers, many of whom look at what is said in Genesis (or maybe more accurately, what is said about Genesis) and creationism and they ask the question, "If Genesis appears to be in contradiction with simple facts such as how the world came into existence then how can it or the rest of the Bible be relied upon in other matters?" It's a fair question. Unfortunately it very easy to confuse what is the Bible and what is our interpretative framework or theology and it's in this are that the seemingly endless debate takes place.

Most people don't get as worked up about it as we do here, and that's fine. It's not an issue that requires passion from everyone. It's is a valid concern however and one that is worthy of attention as a matter of simple truth and also one of apologetics and the presentation of the gospel in others.

My opinion anyway.

blessings,

bart

Keefy wrote:I've been researching alot recently into creation and the whole debate around whether genesis fits into our current scientific understanding. I've also been reading the different creation theories and the arguments and evidence for each and I've come to this conclusion: doing this is essentially a waste of time that devotes my energies away from what really matters. It seemed very important to me at the outset but the more I research the more I seem to see it as a waste of energy.

I suppose my reasoning behind why I looked into the genesis creation account was that it looked on the surface as if science could have disproved genesis, which would mean how could I trust the rest of the bible to be true if genesis was wrong? But... I know as a Christian through my own experiences and through revelation from the Holy Spirit that what the bible says is true. Whether the world was made in six 24-hour periods where somehow time was stretched/distorted or the days instead refer to ages not 24-hour periods or <insert other theory here>, these are all just moot arguments. I believe all these different viewpoints create further schisms within the church and cause us to focus ourselves away from God and faith in Him and instead cause us to focus on ourselves and trying to prove the bible to be real. It also encourages us to get involved in intellectual arguments/discussions with athiests rather than demonstrating the love and power of Christ.

Hey Keefy,

You seem very wise and observant to realize that maybe there is such a thing as spending too much time trying to gather all these facts about proving the Bible's validity. I do not think that gather facts and trying to find scientific and other ways of proving the Bible, or stories in the Bible, is a bad thing at all, I actually think the exact opposite, I think it is a very good thing. The only time this becomes bad, in my opinion, is when it consumes/distracts us from God/loving others, just like you mentioned.

Even good things (loving others, generosity, theology, etc.) can become bad when our motives are twisted, or when that certain thing becomes our God, instead of God Himself being our God. I have been guilty of this plenty times. I value closeness with my gf more than God sometimes, or I value academic achievements more then God at times, or I strive and put more energy towards theology rather than God and His people and His word at times too. There needs to be a healthy appropriate balance I think , and also, we need to realize that as much as we do, I do not think we can ever fully have every single answer. At least for now anyways.

So in conclusion, yes, I have found many Christians feel exactly the way you do about this issue, it is not uncommon. And I do not think it is a bad thing at all. Let all of us do what we are gifted at right?

As for the other segment I made bold from your post;

Again, very valid point there. I just want to note that finding/searching/discovering ways to defend ones faith is certainly not a bad thing at all. As long as that does not become your God, and completely consume ones self. I believe this anyways. In fact, the Bible actually encourages defending your own faith, and not taking anything (even the Bible) for granted, but to make sure you have reasons for what you believe, do not merely have blind faith and accept anything/something without question, that is not too smart.

To address the second portion of the second segmented bold sentence you wrote. I personally do not think that intellectually debating/discussing with atheists is a bad thing. You may not enjoy it or see it as beneficial, but that does not mean everyone else sees it through the same lenses as you. I do definitely think that can distract some people from actually doing more practical things, but again, that is not the case for everyone. This, along with everything else I posted, is simply my opinion. Any debunking or rebuking of what I said is perfectly accepted by myself. So nobody shy away at doing so, if you wish .

EDIT:

I will give an extreme example of both situations, to further illustrate my argument;

If you spend every hour of every day locked in a school or room reading and studying theology and God and religion, but talk to nobody about it, what good is that? Even if you have more knowledge than any other person on this earth. Does that really do any good if you just keep it to yourself? I would say no.

On the other side of the coin, if you never study or learn about God's nature or theology or many common debatable topics or issues with Christianity or God or the Bible, what good is that? You have to know about those things to a certain degree right? You cannot just take the Bible and God for face value, you have to be able to defend why you believe what you believe. If you were to never delve into some of those issues, or issues related, I do not think that would be very wise either.

So with my ranting and raving done, I think it comes down to the individual, and balancing the two, and also a classic "heart vs. head" issue (which many will see how often I harp on this ). Are we studying theology to be smart and for self glory? Or do we really want to know God more and be able to defend our faith more and reach out to that many more people? So for you, I would encourage you to find a healthy balance between the two, it can be difficult, but I think it is important for Christians to do so.

Thanks for your response Delay. I don't have anything else to add really, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond.

Keefy wrote:Thanks for your response Delay. I don't have anything else to add really, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond.

Of course, you are welcome. Hope you found my response helpful.

I find it a pleasant distraction myself but do not appreciate the divisions it brings to the faith.

Keefy wrote:My first post. Nice to meet you all! I have been reading the website for a while now and the forums too and I wanted to join in with the discussions.

Here's my current thinking for today:

I've been researching alot recently into creation and the whole debate around whether genesis fits into our current scientific understanding. I've also been reading the different creation theories and the arguments and evidence for each and I've come to this conclusion: doing this is essentially a waste of time that devotes my energies away from what really matters. It seemed very important to me at the outset but the more I research the more I seem to see it as a waste of energy.

I suppose my reasoning behind why I looked into the genesis creation account was that it looked on the surface as if science could have disproved genesis, which would mean how could I trust the rest of the bible to be true if genesis was wrong? But... I know as a Christian through my own experiences and through revelation from the Holy Spirit that what the bible says is true. Whether the world was made in six 24-hour periods where somehow time was stretched/distorted or the days instead refer to ages not 24-hour periods or <insert other theory here>, these are all just moot arguments. I believe all these different viewpoints create further schisms within the church and cause us to focus ourselves away from God and faith in Him and instead cause us to focus on ourselves and trying to prove the bible to be real. It also encourages us to get involved in intellectual arguments/discussions with athiests rather than demonstrating the love and power of Christ.

Also, I was thinking: Why am I trying to match facts to faith? What am I scared of? Is faith not enough? Am I only secure in my salvation and faith if I can somehow reconcile what I believe to the wisdom and knowledge of secular man. 1 Cor 1:17-25 is a basis for my thoughts.

What do you think? Are these types of discussions about creation, did noah's flood happen etc. more harmful than good?

Hi Keefy.

I do not see anything wrong with healthy arguments. YECs can believe their young earth theory is correct, gap theorists their own, and myself day-age or whatever else you have. At the end of the day I see we are each, at least, embracing truth as really existing. Creation beliefs ultimately has no impact upon upon whether we belong to Christ or not.

Can I ask, do you agree 100% with everything your friends believe? If not, well neither do I. Does that mean a schism exists between ourselves and our friends? Can we love someone else with a different point of view? Of course we can. If we couldn't we would be extremely lonely. Therefore the schism is not caused because of different points of views, but rather because of the behaviour of human beings. I can discuss and love a YEC Christian as much as the OEC Christian. The difference in creation beliefs has no impact upon this. If I were a different kind of person, maybe it would.

Finally, I do not see that rationality conflicts with faith, nor do I think the more truth we know, the less faith is required. Rather, because of my knowledge of truth and pursuits like the one you began, I have come to have a strong faith in Christ. In fact, we are called to give a reason for the hope that we have to all who ask. I therefore see it as a very important part to remaining faithful to Christ to do my best to understand many arguments and issues which come against a belief in Christ.

I book I would highly recommend is 'Tactics: A Game Plan for Discussing Your Christian Convictions' in by Greg Koukl. It touches upon some of the issues you have here raised.

That sounds good and I wish that's how it was but the truth is that YEC'rs have a history of attempting to tie the debate to one's salvation and that definitely is not kosher. Greg's book looks awesome though. Thanks for the reference. I wish I could afford to buy a copy.

ageofknowledge wrote:That sounds good and I wish that's how it was but the truth is that YEC'rs have a history of attempting to tie the debate to one's salvation and that definitely is not kosher. Greg's book looks awesome though. Thanks for the reference. I wish I could afford to buy a copy.

Isn't that generalising too much? For example, CSLewislover (sorry to mention names) is YEC (unless she's changed sides). I was quite happy to have her as a moderator here despite knowing this.

Some YECs (and to be fair I'm sure vice-versa) may attempt to tie secondary issues to primary issues like salvation. The question is: does our understanding of creation "really" affect salvation? Now the answer to that question is a matter of truth. I think it is quite clear we are saved by God's grace by trusting in Christ alone. I don't see any gospel saying we must also believe in 24 hour days or a certain take on creation.

So if any creationist believes one's belief on creation is of primary significance to being saved, then they need to justify it. They can attempt to tie the debate to salvation all they want. Doesn't mean they are right or even justified in doing so. Just shows that such a person is perhaps just attempting to raise the stakes to intimidate someone into accepting their beliefs through fear.

It more likely says something about the character of such a person, unless of course such a person can reasonably justify that belief on creation days is of primary significance to salvation. I do not believe it is and see nothing in Scripture which says otherwise.

I think, as well, that the problem lies with the assertion that to be Old Earth means that you are throwing away part of the scritpture and not believing it. THis, then , is used to show that we break down the Bible and invalidate it's entirety.