Evidence for God from Science

“Christians say that we must 'make a decision' and believe in Jesus Christ and 'accept' him into our hearts, etc. The Bible is replete with statements such as these (i.e., choosing to repent or believe). Well, my final 'jab' of proof against Christianity was the fact that I COULD NOT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING I DID TO DO OTHERWISE.”

The above statement was made by someone else under another topic, but it pretty much characterizes my own situation with regard to believing things. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible to become a more compassionate person. Since many on these boards seem to say that they can do just that, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief in something instantaneously change to belief?

What do you do that would allow you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about “X” and while I still do not believe that “X” exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “X” exists and - poof - I now believe that “X” exists? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don't already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

I don't think that it can be done, but if it can I would really like to know how.

rstrats wrote:“Christians say that we must 'make a decision' and believe in Jesus Christ and 'accept' him into our hearts, etc. The Bible is replete with statements such as these (i.e., choosing to repent or believe). Well, my final 'jab' of proof against Christianity was the fact that I COULD NOT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING I DID TO DO OTHERWISE.”

Is this is a 'jab' of proof against Christianity, it is a 'jab' of proof against any belief. I could not choose to not believe in Christ since I am convinced of the truth.

My wife had the same problem before she came to Christ. She could not believe. Not until God revealed Himself to her in a personal way did everything become clear. Christ simply implores us to seek after God and the door will be opened. (Matt 7:7-8)

Just my two cents... We all believe in something and it usually it relies on our faith. So basically its just where we channel our faith to. Whether its Christianity, yourself, science, car, carrier, etc...

It was an experiential thing for me. I started to believe in God because I saw Him at work in my life and the life of others. At first my belief was a very vague "If there's anything out there, please help" kind of faith. In fact I would call that a willingness to believe rather than a faith. That willingness to believe was rewarded in my case with obvious examples of God working in my life; through prayer, through His assistance in the situations and relationships in my life, through the changing of my character and through His presence. The amazing thing about believing in God is that you can have a relationship with Him. You can come to know what he is like, what he thinks, how he cares, what he wants you to do and not do etc. and you can feel His presence when he chooses to presence himself! There's nothing quite like the presence of God for removing unbelief!

I personally would not make the jump from no belief to 100% belief. Jesus says that a faith the size of a mustard seed is sufficient. Jesus understands that we have little faith, and whilst he rewards great faith, he rewards little faith also. Rather than trying to believe in God wholly and fully, I would suggest having a heart that has a willingness to believe that God could exist. Once you are in that place you could try praying something like "Jesus, if you are out there, please reveal yourself to me". If you honestly mean it then expect something to happen, but perhaps not immediately and probably not in the way you imagined!

As for leprechauns... why would I choose to believe in them? I've never heard a leprechaun that saved someone from alcholism or drug addiction or saved someone's marriage or prevented them from commiting suicide or helped them to cope with a bereavement etc. But I have heard all these things as testimonies of God working in people's lives - indeed my church is full of such stories. If even one, even ONE of the stories you hear of how God changed someone's life is true, then surely that is worth a little belief?

Kurieuo wrote: My wife had the same problem before she came to Christ. She could not believe. Not until God revealed Himself to her in a personal way did everything become clear. Christ simply implores us to seek after God and the door will be opened. (Matt 7:7-8)

It was the same with me. Something internal happened with CS Lewis, too, that just made him believe. His wife, Joy, also had personal experiences with Christ that caused her to believe.

Kurieuo, Gman, Cslewislover,

Thanks for responding, but I'm afraid I don't see how any of your comments demonstrate an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


Keefy,

re: “As for leprechauns... why would I choose to believe in them? “

So as to demonstrate your ability (if you have it) to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

rstrats wrote:Kurieuo, Gman, Cslewislover,

Thanks for responding, but I'm afraid I don't see how any of your comments demonstrate an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

I understand what you're saying, I believe (lol). It sounded to me like Kurieuo was saying, however, that he chose to believe based on rational reasons, on evidence. I'm sure there are a great many Christians that choose to believe in Christ, and so have faith, in this way. I'm not sure why this is a difficulty. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was who he said he was, and that he rose from the grave. You would think that anyone, if they knew these things were true, would not have any problem in believing in him then. But Jesus told us of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and so we know that there will be those who choose not to believe despite the evidence. I was very "fortunate" in that I could have kept on doubting because of certain things (the same things people come here and complain about - evil and suffering in the world, for example), but Jesus had mercy on me. Besides our reasoning abilities, the Spirit works with us to help us believe and grow, but this isn't something that would help in regard to your question, I assume.

I think the question is whether or not belief is volitional. I say the answer is no. Belief, in the strictest sense of the word, is not something you choose to do. So what do we mean when we ask people to believe in Jesus Christ? That implies a choice, and thus, the confusion.

The short answer is that "belief" is more than mental assent, although it includes it. It has a volitional aspect as well. I would render the word "trust." You can believe someone and choose not to trust them. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to trust someone whom you don't believe.

But again, I don't believe that belief--persuasion--is volitional. You can't "choose" to believe. Interestingly, I do think you can choose NOT to believe, but that's another story entirely.

Jac3510,

re: “...I do think you can choose NOT to believe...”

In order for something to be considered a choice, there has to be a least 2 options to select from, and each option has to be able to be selected. If you can choose not to believe something, then you also have to be able to choose TO believe that same something. If you can't, then there is no choice..

The alternative of choosing not to believe is not believing; perhaps that is not evident because of the wording. One can refuse to believe, but that is an act of will. From that, it does not follow that I can will myself to believe.

Put differently, the opposite of willing myself to not believe is not willing myself to believe, but rather to NOT to will myself to not believe.

We encounter this on a regular basis. Something bad happens and we refuse to believe it. Something good happens, and we refuse to believe it so that we won't get our hopes dashed if it turns out we are wrong. I see a lot of that with atheists, I think. They refuse to believe because of the obvious implications.

Jac3510,

re: “One can refuse to believe...”

Saying that one can refuse to believe implies that they COULD consciously choose to believe if they wanted to. If they can't do that, then there is no choice involved.

Ah I see what jac is saying. (I think!)

Rather than choosing to believe you choose to reject your non-belief. So the choice you make is to not choose non-belief, which would imply you put yourself into some kind of neutral state, an open-mindedness?

Jac, why do you think that you can't choose to believe?

Your question on whether one is able to choose Christ is an important question; for without the possibility of such a choice, there is no justice in God judging or punishing someone for not making that choice to believe. What follows are some passages from the Bible that are somehow related to belief. I hope you will find some answers or meaning in these passages. The comments I make are comparably of little to no value.

Pr 14:15 A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.

So it is good to think, to seek reasons or proof before believing something.

Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Ps 22:26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him--may your hearts live forever!
Mt 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

When you seek God with all your heart you will find him, and you will not only believe in him but also praise him.

Jn 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
Jn 1:46 "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked. "Come and see," said Philip.
Jn 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."
Jn 1:48 "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."
Jn 1:49 Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."
Jn 1:50 Jesus said, "You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that."
Jn 1:51 He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

Nathanael didn't need to see much proof to believe. Thomas, on the other hand, sought more proof:

Jn 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.
Jn 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
Jn 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
Jn 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Jn 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jn 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
Jn 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Take note of the last two verses of John 20. God loves you. Jesus the Son of God came to give life, and his life, teachings, miracles, death, and resurrection were recorded so that you may believe.

Jn 10:37 “Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
Jn 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Jn 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
Jn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Jn 14:4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jn 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jn 14:7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Jn 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jn 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jn 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jn 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Believe in Jesus - when someone says that, they are encouraging you to accept the truth they have found, but if you can't yet accept it, then it is an encouragement for you to seek Jesus' truth. Jesus says we must “at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.” This includes both the miracles recorded in the Bible, and the miracles that happen today. God has given proof for those who need it. Again I quote: Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told [Thomas], "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Pr 18:17 The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.

You can't easily believe a side of the story that you have not yet heard, if you had never heard a certain belief about Jesus, you would probably not be able to believe it, and I doubt you would be judged for that.

Ro 10:9 ... if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ro 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Ro 10:11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Ro 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Ro 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Ro 10:15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Ro 10:16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
Ro 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Ro 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
Ro 10:19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."
Ro 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
Ro 10:21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Jn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
Jn 15:23 He who hates me hates my Father as well.
Jn 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
Jn 15:25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'
Jn 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.”

We should just seek for God in humility and honesty. The Holy Spirit has helped me and others to find, understand and accept Jesus. However, if we find and understand Jesus, and then reject him, then we will have no excuse at judgement.

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

You are right, you cannot believe something (make an instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief) just because someone tells you to believe, just like I cannot choose to disbelieve something I believe just because someone asks me to. Nor can I make this transition to belief (e.g. That I can become a more compassionate person) solely because I desire to. So the belief is not always as simple as a choice to sudden decision. So here I support Jac's reply. Furthermore, belief in God does seem to come when we seek him with our whole hearts, because then we find evidence, and the Holy Spirit helps us to personally experience him. I think that this is a point made also by Kurieou, Keefy and cslewislover.

My advice then - if you are wanting to make the change for lack of belief to belief - is to firstly have a heart of willingness to believe that there might be truth in Jesus. (This willingness is also not something you can just choose to have because I or Keefy say you must, I think it will be a personal choice.) Then with your willing, humble and honest heart, seek God by reading an account of the Gospel (for example Matthew or John), and ask God to reveal himself to you (in a way like suggested by Keefy).

And a final note, please don't consider my own words as ultimate truth — I may have made a few illogical or untrue statements without knowing it. So I ask that you forgive any wrongs in my own words and reflect more seriously on the Word of God. (But you are welcome to help me by pointing out any wrongs in my own words that you might have noticed.) I hope you got some sense out of my post.

Keefy wrote:Ah I see what jac is saying. (I think!)

Rather than choosing to believe you choose to reject your non-belief. So the choice you make is to not choose non-belief, which would imply you put yourself into some kind of neutral state, an open-mindedness?

Jac, why do you think that you can't choose to believe?

I think you have it. As I tried to highlight before, the question is of the will. Technically, when we say we "choose" something, we are speaking of an act of the will. Now, I whole-heartedly believe that I cannot will myself to believe. Belief is passive. Belief is this: unless something or someone gets in the way, I will be persuaded by a given argument. There are, of course, all kinds of things that can get in the way. Some things are rational. Others are emotional. Some things are so obvious it is very, very, very difficult for anything to get in the way. Some things are very strongly supported, but yet it is easy to put things in the way. In any case, belief is nothing more than seeing and being persuaded something is true.

I don't see how one can decide to believe something. If belief is persuasion, I can't decide to be persuaded. I simply am or am not. Since persuasion is passive, I say that I can will it. If I can will it, then persuasion is active, not passive.

Concerning the choice to disbelieve, in the absolute strictest sense of the word, you aren't even choosing that, but most of us don't speak in absolutely strict terms. What we really mean when we say that is that we will ourselves--an active process--to put non-rational barriers up for disbelief. For instance I can choose to follow my emotions (sometimes, that is a VERY easy choice, because I am so inclined to do so) rather than what has been rationally put in front of me. Everyone has done, does, and will again do that in their lives. How many times have you looked at something, "known" rationally that it was one way, but simply stepped back and said, "Nope - I'm going to do this instead, because this is what I WANT to do"? And if someone asked you if you "knew" you were wrong, you would argue. You'd pass a lie detector test.

We have that all the time. It is called being conflicted.

So we can, by a matter of the will, choose not to believe something. We can choose to put non-rational barriers up. We can disguise those non-rational barriers with what we think are rational, and often times, we do exactly that. Arguments against God based on evil do just this. People say, "The Christian God is EVIL . . . Look at all the bad things He has done! I don't believe that!" Of course, there is no such thing as evil without God, anyway. But point that out, and they maintain the argument. Why? Because their rejection is ultimately emotional.

Am I saying that they really believe. Hardly. Just the opposite. They really DON'T believe, but they don't believe for irrational reasons. For emotional reasons. They want to hold to their worldview, so they remain conflicted. In common terms, they "choose" to not believe.

Keep in mind, absolutely NO belief is held in a vacuum. We believe everything we do in relation to everything else we believe. It is called a worldview. If, then, someone points out that one part of your worldview conflicts with another, you have to choose what to do. Often, we reject the wrong belief because we want to maintain another.

So, bottom line:

Belief: passive
Will: active

edit: it is because of this, by the way, that intellectual honesty is so important. An intellectually honest person is one who chooses, by an act of the will, to jettison those ideas that he or she wants to hold to, but sees that they are in conflict with other things that he or she knows to be true. Again, passive belief, active will. Choosing not to accept non-believe.

Believers, does throwing numerous scriptures at someone who doesn't beleive them, really do any good?


rstrats
Belief is really just a response. You can not respond to God if He is not pursuing you. I kind of understand what you are saying about choice. I'm just not sure you are grasping the Christian notion of choice. When you taste something, you don't chose whether or not you like the taste. You like it or you don't. However many people choose not to eat things that are bad for them even though they like the flavor. And vice versa.

The fact that you would ask the question tells me, you are either desiring to understand how to respond, or confused about what it means to beleive. The 3rd option is that you are being antagonistic and I don't think that is the case. If it is, then there is no use in answering because you can not seek/choose/respond God with a proud heart. "God resist the proud and gives grace to the humble."

Can we really intellectualize ourselves into the Kingdom of God? I think not. Is salvation simply a flavor we chose?

If you were drowning in the middle of the ocean and someone threw you a life preserver, would you grab it?

Good choice. Now, you could say that you really had no choice. The consequences being so certain, you would lunge for the preserver without contemplating, "should I grab it, or not?" It is obvious by your inquiry that you do not know what is being offered, and why you need it. If I offered you the cure for a disease you didn't know or beleive you had, I doubt you would chose to accept it.

My question is, do you know why you need a savior?
I look forward to your response.