Evidence for God from Science

Hello everyone, i am a new member of this board, nice to meet you all.

First let me say i am born to a christian mother and a Muslim father. I've always been confused between what to chose and follow, but in the end, with reading a lot of both, they are both the same, which is why i wanted to comment on this article .

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html

The article is truly amazing, i totally love it. mind blowing. but there is only one part that i think it should be edited.

The God of the Koran and Hindu Vedas are Gods restricted to the time and space dimensions of this universe and, therefore, are logically impossible

This is not true. in Koran God is not restricted to the time and space dimensions of this universe. and also, even though alot Christians don't know/wouldn't admit, Koran is just like a new testament. Allah is just the Arabic word translation for God. Koran talks in detail about Jesus and the virgin Mary, and praise them in more than one location. same for Moses, and other prophets.

Also, Science proved a lot of what is in the bible right. but the same goes for Koran, and actually, about 20x more (yes exaggeration, but a lot more) i can link you to the site with all discoveries which are in Koran and proved right scientifically.

All of us, as believers in heaven, i don't really think being Muslim or being christian or being Jewish matters, because all the three follow one God, the only difference may be the prophet, but we don't worship the prophet, we worship the prophet's God. so its what YOU, as a person and a believer do in your life what matters.

Koran doesnt say kill other people who are not Muslim and they are infidels, that's not true.

Koran says " Say: O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship.And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship.To you be your Way, and to me mine. " SURA 109: KAFIRUN.

Koran gave everyone free choice to follow what they want to follow.

And also " nearest among them in love to you wilt thou find those who say, we are Christians: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. "

Also it says a lot other things like don't fight them unless they fight you, and if you forgive that's even better.
If Muslims look any different to you than our easy technology full European/American life, its because all the wars they are going through. which obviously they are not the cause of it, but more likely the greedy other countries, but that's another topic.

Thanks for reading this, please give me your opinions nicely, am not here to have arguments about being muslim or being christian, am just trying to clear a point.

izzy wrote:Hello everyone, i am a new member of this board, nice to meet you all.

Welcome to the forum..

izzy wrote:This is not true. in Koran God is not restricted to the time and space dimensions of this universe. and also, even though alot Christians don't know/wouldn't admit, Koran is just like a new testament.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. The Koran and the New Testament are not the same..

izzy wrote:Allah is just the Arabic word translation for God. Koran talks in detail about Jesus and the virgin Mary, and praise them in more than one location. same for Moses, and other prophets.

That's the whole problem. The Koran states that Jesus was only a prophet, not the Son of God... The New Testament tells us the complete opposite.. 2 Corinthians 1:19. The Koran and the New Testament are in conflict..

izzy wrote:Also, Science proved a lot of what is in the bible right. but the same goes for Koran, and actually, about 20x more (yes exaggeration, but a lot more) i can link you to the site with all discoveries which are in Koran and proved right scientifically.

But does that make it right?

izzy wrote:All of us, as believers in heaven, i don't really think being Muslim or being christian or being Jewish matters, because all the three follow one God, the only difference may be the prophet, but we don't worship the prophet, we worship the prophet's God. so its what YOU, as a person and a believer do in your life what matters.

I would say that the God of the Koran and the God of the Bible are very different. The Koran is a works based faith, where you have to work for your salvation such as the 5 pillars of faith. Christianity is different. Christianity is a faith based religion where it is by faith "alone" that get's you saved.. In other words, you CANNOT work for your salvation. Goods works are simply the bi-product of faith.

izzy wrote:Koran doesn't say kill other people who are not Muslim and they are infidels, that's not true.

I disagree... The Koran tells it's follower to kill the infidels. Surah's 2:191, 2:193, 8:39, 9:29.

izzy wrote:Koran gave everyone free choice to follow what they want to follow.

Ah, not really. There are verses in the Koran that tells it's followers to take over all the other faiths.. Complete domination..

izzy wrote:Also it says a lot other things like don't fight them unless they fight you, and if you forgive that's even better.

Where in the Koran does it ever say to love your neighbor as yourself? As a commandment?

izzy wrote:If Muslims look any different to you than our easy technology full European/American life, its because all the wars they are going through. which obviously they are not the cause of it, but more likely the greedy other countries, but that's another topic.

There would be no wars if there wasn't such a focus on Israel. That is ultimately where the problem lies although there are others..

izzy wrote:Thanks for reading this, please give me your opinions nicely, am not here to have arguments about being muslim or being christian, am just trying to clear a point.

No problem... Take care.

Thanks for replying back to me.

Gman wrote:I'm sorry, but I disagree. The Koran and the New Testament are not the same..

Thats fine i guess.

Gman wrote:That's the whole problem. The Koran states that Jesus was only a prophet, not the Son of God... The New Testament tells us the complete opposite.. 2 Corinthians 1:19. The Koran and the New Testament are in conflict..

But Koran was never edited since Prophet Mohamed unlike the bible. but i don't see how that is the problem, if the God is the same. notice that even though Koran said that Jesus is not son of God, it still praised him, and it did NOT say that Mohamed is the son of God.

Gman wrote:But does that make it right?

Yes it does, if it can prove things that was just discovered, 1400 years ago, so yes i guess it does.

Gman wrote:I would say that the God of the Koran and the God of the Bible are very different. The Koran is a works based faith, where you have to work for your salvation such as the 5 pillars of faith. Christianity is different. Christianity is a faith based religion where it is by faith "alone" that get's you saved.. In other words, you CANNOT work for your salvation. Goods works are simply the bi-product of faith.

You got a point here, but. say your God asked you to pray for him 5 times a day. is he not worth it? no, he IS worth it, and alot more. if you pray for him your whole life, you would be still far away from being completely thankful for all what he have done for you. Also, The other pillars of faith. like " Al Zaka " Where you give a little of your money to the poor. isn't that great? and if you CANT, you don't have to. same for Visiting Mekka, it forgives and erase all your past and future sins, and still if you are not able to afford it, you don't have to.

Gman wrote:I disagree... The Koran tells it's follower to kill the infidels. Surah's 2:191, 2:193, 8:39, 9:29.

I believe you don't want to accept Koran at all, that's why you try to find points where it says that it is a bloody religion, as if that will make you feel better.

2:191. Read the aya before it and after it, they are all connected. It says And fight in the name of God " Those who fight you " but do not transgress limits; for Alaah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the sacred mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. such is the reward of those who suppress faith.But if they cease, Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful.

2:193 Is the completition for the above. and follows it saying " The prohibited month for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. if then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. but fear Allah, and know that Alaah is with those who restrain themselves. "

8:39 " And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Alaah doth see all that they do. " And the other phrases around it is related as well.

9:29 " - Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Alaah and his Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission. "

Notice that Christians are not even considered Infidels. and whenever Muslims entered a country, they never destroyed the Churches, they left it, and gave Christians all their rights. the Jizya is something like a tax, for protecting them. So in the above you see that Koran is full of mercy and forgiveness and its not like what you think. and there is a lot other parts where it shows as much beauty in forgiveness and morals as in the bible itself.

Also notice that Islam says never, NEVER kill elders,kids or women in war. dont destroy houses or burn trees. what is more peaceful that that even at war?

Gman wrote:Ah, not really. There are verses in the Koran that tells it's followers to take over all the other faiths.. Complete domination..

But i just quoted a sura in my first reply saying that everyone is free to pick their religion? that's contradicting here.

Gman wrote:Where in the Koran does it ever say to love your neighbor as yourself? As a commandment?

it says. and also Mohamed Peace upon him said also.

The Prophet (Pbuh) is quoted by his wife Ayesha, as saying: “Gabriel has continued to strongly recommend me to be kind to my neighbor until I thought that he would make him among my heirs.” (Related by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Malik and others). This Hadith which has been widely reported, in different chains of reporting, is highly significant. Moreover, it is phrased in a way which leaves no doubt where the order to be kind to neighbors comes from. It is Gabriel, the angel, who is recommending the Prophet to take such an attitude to his neighbors. Gabriel, as an angel, does not initiate anything from himself. He simply carries a message from Allah to His Prophet and conveys it in its entirety. Allah describes angels in the Quran as creatures who do not disobey Allah whatever He bids them, and they do what they are bid. (66:6) So, when Gabriel makes a recommendation to the Prophet, he simply conveys to him what Allah wants him to convey. That recommendation is, then, an order given by Allah.

Also Mohamed had a Jewish neighbor that kept throwing trash in front his house everyday, but Mohamed didn't do anything and just kept removing the trash everyday, till one day he didn't find the trash, so he asked about the Jew, so they told him he is sick. so he went and visited him and hoped for him to get better.

Gman wrote:There would be no wars if there wasn't such a focus on Israel. That is ultimately where the problem lies although there are others..

True, but still. you have no idea how many wars middle east went through. Britannia, France,Italy,Spain, Germany, they all raided over the middle east over and over, and even in the little times where the countries had their independence, they made sure the governors were corrupt to assure their own benefits. and out of Israel, there is Iraq. if US' only problem was terrorism (well, you never call the slaughters England did at Egypt and Algeria terrorism uh, and the bombing Israel does to the armless people) then, it would have gone out straight after they have took down Saddam.
Israel is not peaceful, proof is that it raided Egypt, and Jordon, And Lebanon. does that sound peaceful? but Palestine is the only country it succeeded to take over, so in time we came to believe that this is Israel, not Palestine. but then, do you think Palestinian people even want Israel to leave ? no they just want to have a small share of land where they can live in peace, but Israel is not helping much. i don't hate Jews, don't get me wrong, i have like over 10 Jewish friends who i love very much and would do anything for them. religion doesn't matter for me as long as you are a good person.

izzy wrote:got a point here, but. say your God asked you to pray for him 5 times a day. is he not worth it? no, he IS worth it, and alot more.

Ultimately the point, Izzy is that Islam says that these WORKS are what reconcile you to God. CHrsitianity i a belief in our inability to reconcile our relationsip to God by our paltry works. Sure God is worth praying to. It says in God's scripture to "pray without ceasing". But we can't do this without CHrist. Bottom line....inherently the belief systems are totally different with regards to salvation

izzy wrote: if you pray for him your whole life, you would be still far away from being completely thankful for all what he have done for you.

Exactly, and this points to our need for CHrist. In this Islamic belief system, you are always working off a debt that you can never work off.

izzy wrote: Also, The other pillars of faith. like " Al Zaka " Where you give a little of your money to the poor. isn't that great? and if you CANT, you don't have to.

This is based on actions? What about the heart. What about the greed within the heart? Hwat defines Can't?

izzy wrote: same for Visiting Mekka, it forgives and erase all your past and future sins, and still if you are not able to afford it, you don't have to.

Pardon for asking...."it"? WHat is "it"? Allah?!?! Doesn't seem so personal to me. I've never understood this metho of forgiveness.....rather fickle and meaningless to me I simpl go somewhere I'm forgiven?!? But I am forgiven even if I don't go there?!? But if this is the place where I get forgiveness, then surely it is worth all and all risks to go there. But wait, no I guess it's not *that* important because I'm still forgiven if I don't go?!?! So I'm forgiven either way?!?

so its what YOU, as a person and a believer do in your life what matters.

Izzy,
Thanks for your contribution.
I can easily demonstrate to you that all faiths are not the same. Not at all. In fact Christianity stands unique in this most critical question.

Imagine I offered you a choice of four gifts:
● The original Mona Lisa
● The keys to a brand new Lamborghini
● A million dollars in cash
● A parachute
You can pick only one. Which would you
choose? Before you decide, here's some information
that will help you to make the wisest
choice: You have to jump 10,000 feet out of an
airplane.
Does that help you to connect the dots? It
should, because you need the parachute. It's
the only one of the four gifts that will help
with your dilemma. The others may have some
value, but they are useless when it comes to
facing the law of gravity in a 10,000-foot fall.


I'm sure like most of us you plan on dying one day. Maybe you aren't planning on it, but you know it is inevitable. At that time you and I will pass from this life into eternity. You would agree that knowing God rightly is the most important thing we can learn in this life. Eternity is a long time to be wrong. Just like stepping out of that plane, you are stepping into eternity. And just like the parachute, there is only one thing that can save you when you make the eternal jump.

You are saying that what we do (works) is what matters in life.
Have you lied?
Ever looked with lust? (Jesus said this was the same as adultery)
Have you ever stolen anything, regardless of value or how old you were when you did it?
Ever hated? Jesus said this is the same as having murder in your heart.

If so, then God sees you as a lying, adulterous, thieving, murderer at heart.
And that is only four of the ten commands.

God's law stands opposed to you. It condemns you and finds you guilty. Sadly you think you can work off this debt, or do enough good to balance the scales.

Now imagine you are standing before a judge accused of serious crimes. You were caught red handed, and there is no denying your guilt. You say to the judge, "yes your honor I did commit this crime, but on the way to court I did a good deed, and therefore you should let me go." A good judge will not let you go. He will say, "your deed has no relevance to the crime you committed." In fact the judge might see your attempts at self-justication as a selfi-righteous bribe. In the same way you are attempting to throw God .10 cents of self-righteousness to pay your sin debt.

The bible teaches that even our thoughts will be judged by God. Our lust, hate, covetousness and indifference will not be hidden from judgement. It is because God is so holy, just and righteous that our crimes (sins) are so heinous. Now compared to some people, I have no doubt you are a pretty good guy. But that is not the standard God will judge by. His standard is perfection, holiness.

Therefore Islam and Christianity are nothing the same. Islam is another of many of mankind's religious attempts to bring God down to man's level. God desires to lift us up. And He accomplished that through the only method that would satisfy His uncompromising holiness. Jesus was God's only begotten and lived a life without any sin. He died on a cross as a sacrifice to pay your sin debt. Because Christ stood in your place and took the judgment you deserved. It is for this reason the judge can commute your sentance and say you are free to go. Your fine has been paid, you are free to go. All you are called to do, is respond to His gift of grace. Appropriate the gift through faith in Christ, not your own self-righteousness.

jlay wrote:

so its what YOU, as a person and a believer do in your life what matters.

Izzy,
Thanks for your contribution.
I can easily demonstrate to you that all faiths are not the same. Not at all. In fact Christianity stands unique in this most critical question.

Imagine I offered you a choice of four gifts:
● The original Mona Lisa
● The keys to a brand new Lamborghini
● A million dollars in cash
● A parachute
You can pick only one. Which would you
choose? Before you decide, here's some information
that will help you to make the wisest
choice: You have to jump 10,000 feet out of an
airplane.
Does that help you to connect the dots? It
should, because you need the parachute. It's
the only one of the four gifts that will help
with your dilemma. The others may have some
value, but they are useless when it comes to
facing the law of gravity in a 10,000-foot fall.

Let's say you have no knowledge of parachutes. You are offered what looks like a backpack with a handle - do you trust that it will save you? To make the choice more realistic, say the requirement is in order to get the car or the million dollars, you will have to jump out of the plane with the parachute, but you can elect to stay in the plane but get nothing (although the plane could crash, of course). Another variation would be that you have to pick from several different "backpacks with handles", at least one (but probably not all) are real parachutes - each "parachute" is represented by people who are absolutely convinced that only their particular model actually works and that all the other models are just extra weight.

BTW In my younger days, I was a sky diver (among other things) and believe me, every sky diver I ever knew made absolutely certain his parachute was correctly packed and rigged before even thinking about jumping.

izzy wrote:But Koran was never edited since Prophet Mohamed unlike the bible. but i don't see how that is the problem, if the God is the same. notice that even though Koran said that Jesus is not son of God, it still praised him, and it did NOT say that Mohamed is the son of God.

Again, that would be a huge difference.. The Bible clearly says that Jesus was the Son of God and worthy of worship, not just a mere prophet.

izzy wrote:Yes it does, if it can prove things that was just discovered, 1400 years ago, so yes i guess it does.

Of course you are aware of the problems with science and the Koran?

http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm

izzy wrote:You got a point here, but. say your God asked you to pray for him 5 times a day. is he not worth it? no, he IS worth it, and alot more. if you pray for him your whole life, you would be still far away from being completely thankful for all what he have done for you. Also, The other pillars of faith. like " Al Zaka " Where you give a little of your money to the poor. isn't that great? and if you CANT, you don't have to. same for Visiting Mekka, it forgives and erase all your past and future sins, and still if you are not able to afford it, you don't have to.

Jlay, summed it pretty well for us. Izzy, God is completely pure and demands complete perfection.. Mankind cannot supply this at all. God is worth way more than just praying 5 times a day or giving alms to the poor. He deserves everything about us.. You CANNOT work for God's praise or salvation.. Vain repetitions will not work either. Our work is completely corrupt before him and is void. So how do we correct this? By following His way, by following His goodness.. Everything else is done in vain..

izzy wrote:I believe you don't want to accept Koran at all, that's why you try to find points where it says that it is a bloody religion, as if that will make you feel better.

I have studied it long enough to know where it leads...

izzy wrote:2:191. Read the aya before it and after it, they are all connected. It says And fight in the name of God " Those who fight you " but do not transgress limits; for Alaah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the sacred mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. such is the reward of those who suppress faith.But if they cease, Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful.

2:193 Is the completition for the above. and follows it saying " The prohibited month for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. if then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. but fear Allah, and know that Alaah is with those who restrain themselves. "

8:39 " And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Alaah doth see all that they do. " And the other phrases around it is related as well.

9:29 " - Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Alaah and his Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission. "

Notice that Christians are not even considered Infidels. and whenever Muslims entered a country, they never destroyed the Churches, they left it, and gave Christians all their rights. the Jizya is something like a tax, for protecting them. So in the above you see that Koran is full of mercy and forgiveness and its not like what you think. and there is a lot other parts where it shows as much beauty in forgiveness and morals as in the bible itself.

Izzy, the passages read "Fight those who believe not in Allah." Do you think that Christians and Jews believe in Allah?

Also, are you aware that Muslims are not to make friends with Jews or Christians?

Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

More here:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran ... s-jews.htm

izzy wrote:Also notice that Islam says never, NEVER kill elders,kids or women in war. dont destroy houses or burn trees. what is more peaceful that that even at war?

The Koran makes it clear that it kills elders, kids or women. Any unbeliever, also referred to as "them."

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-not-peaceful.htm

izzy wrote:But i just quoted a sura in my first reply saying that everyone is free to pick their religion? that's contradicting here.

But the Koran states that it must overcome all the religions..

Sura 61:9 He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them.

Sura 9:33 It is He Who has sent His Noble Messenger with guidance and the true religion, in order to prevail over all other religions - even if the polytheists get annoyed.

Sura 48:28 It is He Who has sent His Noble Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, in order to make it prevail over all other religions; and Allah is sufficient as a Witness.

Gman wrote:Where in the Koran does it ever say to love your neighbor as yourself? As a commandment?

izzy wrote:it says. and also Mohamed Peace upon him said also.

Where in the Koran does it ever command you to love your neighbor as yourself?

The Prophet (Pbuh) is quoted by his wife Ayesha, as saying: “Gabriel has continued to strongly recommend me to be kind to my neighbor until I thought that he would make him among my heirs.” (Related by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Malik and others). This Hadith which has been widely reported, in different chains of reporting, is highly significant. Moreover, it is phrased in a way which leaves no doubt where the order to be kind to neighbors comes from. It is Gabriel, the angel, who is recommending the Prophet to take such an attitude to his neighbors. Gabriel, as an angel, does not initiate anything from himself. He simply carries a message from Allah to His Prophet and conveys it in its entirety. Allah describes angels in the Quran as creatures who do not disobey Allah whatever He bids them, and they do what they are bid. (66:6) So, when Gabriel makes a recommendation to the Prophet, he simply conveys to him what Allah wants him to convey. That recommendation is, then, an order given by Allah.

Also Mohamed had a Jewish neighbor that kept throwing trash in front his house everyday, but Mohamed didn't do anything and just kept removing the trash everyday, till one day he didn't find the trash, so he asked about the Jew, so they told him he is sick. so he went and visited him and hoped for him to get better.

Be kind to your neighbor? Also this is a Hadith not the Koran directly.. Where does it say to LOVE your neighbor. Being kind and loving are two different things...

izzy wrote:True, but still. you have no idea how many wars middle east went through. Britannia, France,Italy,Spain, Germany, they all raided over the middle east over and over, and even in the little times where the countries had their independence, they made sure the governors were corrupt to assure their own benefits. and out of Israel, there is Iraq. if US' only problem was terrorism (well, you never call the slaughters England did at Egypt and Algeria terrorism uh, and the bombing Israel does to the armless people) then, it would have gone out straight after they have took down Saddam.

I know there has always been fighting over there. But Europe has pretty much stayed out of the picture... I think a lot of it now has to do with oil..

izzy wrote:srael is not peaceful, proof is that it raided Egypt, and Jordon, And Lebanon. does that sound peaceful? but Palestine is the only country it succeeded to take over, so in time we came to believe that this is Israel, not Palestine. but then, do you think Palestinian people even want Israel to leave ? no they just want to have a small share of land where they can live in peace, but Israel is not helping much. i don't hate Jews, don't get me wrong, i have like over 10 Jewish friends who i love very much and would do anything for them. religion doesn't matter for me as long as you are a good person.

No Izzy... The 6 day war was a response to the aggressions of the arabs that tried to invade Israel. The Israelis were forced to defend their land that was given to them by the United Nations back in 1948. And once the wars ended, they gave back those lands..

The Palestinian's could create their country any time they want to... But they choose not to. Do you want to know why? Because then they would have to recognize Israel as a country.

Wayne,

Nothing personal, but my analogy was not about the inner workings of parachutes.

Based on this and past conversations, you don't get analogies.

Gman wrote:I disagree... The Koran tells it's follower to kill the infidels. Surah's 2:191, 2:193, 8:39, 9:29.

I believe you don't want to accept Koran at all, that's why you try to find points where it says that it is a bloody religion, as if that will make you feel better.

There are a great many reasons not to accept the Quran, it doesn't have to do with feeling better about it. There is a book by Abdullah Al-Araby, Islam Unveiled, a concise comparison of both faiths (ISBN # 0-9656683-2-0).

Notice that Christians are not even considered Infidels. and whenever Muslims entered a country, they never destroyed the Churches, they left it, and gave Christians all their rights. the Jizya is something like a tax, for protecting them. So in the above you see that Koran is full of mercy and forgiveness and its not like what you think. and there is a lot other parts where it shows as much beauty in forgiveness and morals as in the bible itself.

This is blatantly false. And there are plenty of Christians still getting killed today in Muslim countries (by Muslims). There are instances, too, of young Christian males being forced to join with terrorists - the way they are forced is that the terrorists tell the young man that if he doesn't, his family will be killed.

Gman wrote:Ah, not really. There are verses in the Koran that tells it's followers to take over all the other faiths.. Complete domination..

But i just quoted a sura in my first reply saying that everyone is free to pick their religion? that's contradicting here.

That's a good point. There is much contradiction. And, the surahs you gave sound to me as though they are commanding revenge; they do not sound like commands for immediate battle or attack situations.

jlay wrote:Wayne,

Nothing personal, but my analogy was not about the inner workings of parachutes.

Based on this and past conversations, you don't get analogies.

Or I don't get your analogies .

I don't really have a wider knowledge regarding what a koran is. Based on what i have knew, it says that jesus is just a prophet and not the son of God.
I just wondering what makes it the same as the new testament. if that's true, maybe the way how people translate is the only one that differs. well, that's too much to argue with, let's just all find it with ourselves and our relationship with God of course.
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izzy wrote:But Koran was never edited since Prophet Mohamed unlike the bible. but i don't see how that is the problem, if the God is the same. notice that even though Koran said that Jesus is not son of God, it still praised him, and it did NOT say that Mohamed is the son of God..

The Qur'an wasn't even established until about 150 years after the death of Mohammed. The Gospel of Mark was compiled within about 35 years of Jesus' death. The Epistles of Paul are the most authenticly verified documents to ever be found.

izzy wrote:I believe you don't want to accept Koran at all, that's why you try to find points where it says that it is a bloody religion, as if that will make you feel better..

Islam was established in 622 CE, and by 633 it had declared Jihad on the Byzantines. The sheer aggression and intolerence of Islam is historically evident from practically the very beginning.

izzy wrote:Notice that Christians are not even considered Infidels. and whenever Muslims entered a country, they never destroyed the Churches, they left it, and gave Christians all their rights. the Jizya is something like a tax, for protecting them. So in the above you see that Koran is full of mercy and forgiveness and its not like what you think. and there is a lot other parts where it shows as much beauty in forgiveness and morals as in the bible itself..

Where on this earth do you draw this conclusion? The Jizya was actually in return for the Christian inhabitants' lives. Protection? Yes, protection from the very invaders who imposed Jizya! And this was why the Arab aggressors didn't force conversion on Christians, as there would have been little worth when considering the lucrative Jizya.

And how you can say that Islam invaders never trashed cities and slaughtered many of its inhabitants (which they did refrain from largely before the first crusade) is beyond me. There is ample historical evidence to back up the fact that they *did* exactly this.

izzy wrote:Also Mohamed had a Jewish neighbor that kept throwing trash in front his house everyday, but Mohamed didn't do anything and just kept removing the trash everyday, till one day he didn't find the trash, so he asked about the Jew, so they told him he is sick. so he went and visited him and hoped for him to get better..

Speaking of Jewish neighbours, Mohammed actually pleaded with the Jews that he was actually a prophet, and quoted scripture in conformity to his "prophesy" and the Jews, frankly, laughed it off as he was interpreting scripture - according to the Jews - in a ludicrous fashion. So Mohammed then skulked off and formed Islam. Hardly an inspired doctrine, then...

izzy wrote:True, but still. you have no idea how many wars middle east went through. Britannia, France,Italy,Spain, Germany, they all raided over the middle east over and over, and even in the little times where the countries had their independence, they made sure the governors were corrupt to assure their own benefits. and out of Israel, there is Iraq. if US' only problem was terrorism (well, you never call the slaughters England did at Egypt and Algeria terrorism uh, and the bombing Israel does to the armless people) then, it would have gone out straight after they have took down Saddam.
Israel is not peaceful, proof is that it raided Egypt, and Jordon, And Lebanon. does that sound peaceful? but Palestine is the only country it succeeded to take over, so in time we came to believe that this is Israel, not Palestine. but then, do you think Palestinian people even want Israel to leave ? no they just want to have a small share of land where they can live in peace, but Israel is not helping much. i don't hate Jews, don't get me wrong, i have like over 10 Jewish friends who i love very much and would do anything for them. religion doesn't matter for me as long as you are a good person.

Israel has constantly had to defend itself against aggression. To turn this on its head would be to invert history.

Your last couple of lines are very nice, and I'm glad you feel that way. It is of course worth noting that there is good to be found in all of the monotheistic religions.

Dan

About the mecha place, is that to muslims as the sacrement is to christians? Just instead of every sunday...once in a lifetime(i guess this could be a really huge thing?) But i think that if you make that sort of sacrifice over and over again there is a chance it could get hammered into you and not need to be such a massive huge thing right?

Hi izzy. A very good writer and scientist named Fazale Rana also had a Muslim father and a Christian mother. You might enjoy some of his books.

Here's one you might like:



http://www.amazon.com/What-Darwin-Didnt ... 265&sr=1-5