Evidence for God from Science

Okay...So, i was discussing with a friend about Homosexuality. She is against the idea, and I'm for it. I don't care about the church, I believe Jesus/god don't belong in a cage and nor do i. but to the point...

Has Jesus ever said anything directly against Homosexuality? and I'm not talking about "marriage" between man and woman. and please don't waste time not answering the question and jumping around.

Lorden wrote:Okay...So, i was discussing with a friend about Homosexuality. She is against the idea, and I'm for it. I don't care about the church, I believe Jesus/god don't belong in a cage and nor do i. but to the point...

Has Jesus ever said anything directly against Homosexuality? and I'm not talking about "marriage" between man and woman. and please don't waste time not answering the question and jumping around.

I don't believe Jesus ever said anything directly about drug use either...In fact there is A LOT of things Jesus didn't say anything about directly. What's your point?
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Lorden wrote:I don't care about the church

Really?

Jesus wrote:And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (Matt. 16:18)

Seems like the Church was Jesus' idea, not ours. I'm not so sure I'd tell Jesus you didn't care about His idea.

Paul wrote:Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Eph 5:25)

And here, we have Jesus loving the Church so much that He died for her. And yet, you don't care about her at all? I'm not too sure Jesus would approve of such an attitude . . .

But other than the Church, what else did Jesus care about?

Jesus wrote:Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35)

Looks like Jesus cared quite a bit about Scripture. Of course, for Him, the NT wasn't written yet, so He couldn't have been talking about that. He must have been talking about that nasty, dirty, hateful OT. Ya know, the one that says homosexuality is an abomintion. Where is that again . . . oh yes, here:

God wrote:'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Lev 18:22)

Maybe we shouldn't care what God thinks, either? And before you start preaching at me about whether or not I keep the rest of the OT, note that I'm not appealing to a case of legal consequences (i.e., law), but rather, the way God views things. The word "detestable" here (NIV - "abomination" in the KJV) is the Hebrew word tow'ebah, which literally means "a disgusting thing." So here's another translation for you:

"Do not have sex with other men, for that is disgusting to Me" -God

So tell me, does that make God "arrogant, close minded, and intolerant"? Perhaps He should go to Hell, too?

Now, if Jesus thought that the OT was binding, and the OT calls homosexuality disgusting, it probably follows that Jesus considered homosexuality disgusting. Perhaps the reason Jesus didn't address the issue explicitly is that it had already been very explicitly addressed in the OT, to which He had already assented. And still further, by that logic, we should not rule out polygamy, because Jesus never spoke explicitly to it, either!

And, to break your little rule about discussing marriage, Jesus did say that any sex outside of marriage is wrong (it's called fornication). By definition, however, homosexuals cannot marry, no matter what US law says. However humans try to define marriage, God does defines it as a permanent union between one man and one woman, at least, so says Jesus:

Jesus wrote:"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." (Matt19:4-6)

Ah, there's that OT again, isn't it? How does Jesus define the way marriage was "from the beginning"--between a male and a female. So if marriage, in God's eyes, is between a man and a woman, then pretty clearly any homosexual sex, even if within the bounds of "legal marriage" is still fornication in God's eyes and thus sinful.

At least, so says Jesus.

Of course, we could also look at that famous passage in Romans . . . or perhaps you believe that Jesus didn't inspire Paul to write those words? And if so, then I assume you believe in an errant Scripture. And if so, I see no reason for you to believe that Jesus said or did ANYTHING written about Him, because He personally didn't write any of the Gospels. So perhaps He never even existed. Perhaps He was just a made up figure by religious folks. In other words, you can't accept the words of Jesus while rejecting as authoritative the words of His immediate followers, because THEY are the ones who recorded His words in the first place. If they aren't trustworthy, then neither is anything they said about Jesus, which means you can't know what He said.

So, when we admit Paul, we get multiple very clear references against homosexuality. I'm sure you don't need all those listed, because if you did, you would have made this about the NT and homosexuality, not just Jesus and homosexuality.

Bottom line: Jesus, the NT, and the OT, all by the authority of the Father, all condemn homosexuality (along with every other form of sexual sin straight people like to commit).

"If you love me KEEP my commands."

As Jac points out, Jesus gave a very clear expression of what a "marriage" consist of. One man, one woman. The bible, which is all a big arrow pointing to Jesus, is clear that homosexuality is wrong. It is not more wrong than any particular sin. Sin is wrong, period.

I feel for those who experience homosexual desires. I have never had to deal with that. But I have certainly had to deal with heterosexual desires. Should people act on every desire they have? Of course not. I have seen children do terribly cruel things to other children. I have seen children do cruel things to themselves, and engage in reckless behavior that could do them harm. They had the desire to do things that they knew were wrong. Should they proceed since it is a "natural" desire?

What seperates man from God is loving his own ideas and desires more than those of God. And so a man will try and justify himself in his own mind. And here we have a case of trying to water down the truth. W.C. Fields was seen reading the bible once, and someone asked him what he was doing. He replied, "looking for loop holes, looking for loop holes." Lorden's comments are an example of looking for loop holes. Jesus didn't say anything relating to a lot of specific sins. Loading a question in advance exposes the attempt to justify one's thoughts, and create a God in one's own mind that is more accepting of sin.
I love the way this translation reads. But the man wanted to show that the way he was living was right. So he said to Jesus, "But who are these other people I must love?" Luke 10:29Everyone is interested in asking the loaded question, "how can I inherit eternal life," and still hold on to my sinful ways.

I have a gay friend who was recently explaining to me how disgusted he had become with certain folks in the gay community. How some he knew were living a very reckless sexual lifestyle. It was very interesting to hear a homosexual condemning gay lifestyle. In his mind, he was justified in his own gay lifestyle, yet was able to see the wrong in others. Very revealing. In fact this was the 2nd gay person who had related this type of story to me.

This is very typical of mankind, and relates back to Jesus warning on judging without proper consideration to one's own condition. This same person has also related how he has been judged by his family for living in a homosexual relationship.

jlay wrote:Jesus didn't say anything relating to a lot of specific sins.

So what do we use in one of the specific cases that He didn't mention?

I have a gay friend who was recently explaining to me how disgusted he had become with certain folks in the gay community. How some he knew were living a very reckless sexual lifestyle. It was very interesting to hear a homosexual condemning gay lifestyle. In his mind, he was justified in his own gay lifestyle, yet was able to see the wrong in others. Very revealing. In fact this was the 2nd gay person who had related this type of story to me.

My lifestyle includes occasional use of alchohol. I have a friend who drinks to excess frequently. My being concerned about his excessive drinking doesn't mean that I have to give up a glass of wine with a good meal or a glass of beer with friends. Haven't you ever been disgusted by someone living a risky heterosexual lifestyle? It's fairly typical for homosexuals who are in monogamous relationships and use "safe" practice to be concerned about others who are promiscuous and/or use more risky practices.

Wayne,

What is your point exactly?

My point is that homosexuals are quick to cry "judge not." And it was interesting from my perspective to see them judging something they felt crossed the line.

In other words, wrong is only at the point it digust or disturbs us. Everyone has a boundary where behavior crosses from accpetable to forbidden. Often how we determine this is based only on our feelings and desires. Take porn for example. A man may have no problem looking at 20 year old women naked. What about 19 year olds, 18, 17, 16? At some point he justifies his perversion as OK, and then draws the line and condemns the perversion of others. This is based on the level at which he receives pleasure. There are those who receive pleasure looking at young children and they so justify themselves that they will break the law to feed their perversion despite the risks of severe embarrassment and legal penalty.

We are "OK" with our activities, but we get all uppity when the finger is pointed at our own dirty laundry. It is a very difficult time for the church because we have so much sexual deviance within the church. And so the church appears and often is hypocritical in calling out homosexuals. We permit divorce, but condemn gays. We permit pre-marital sex but condemn others. We are not consistent. God sent his son to die for homosexuals, fornicators, and liars.

My being concerned about his excessive drinking doesn't mean that I have to give up a glass of wine with a good meal or a glass of beer with friends.

Really a totally different topic. My uncle is an addict. Every Christmas my family gathers and many bring wine and beer. This makes me sick, because it is putting my uncle in a situation that he should not have to face. He is among family, and here are his own flesh and blood tempting him. They are oblivious because they are justifying themselves because they do not have an addiction.

jlay, very good post!

jlay wrote:Wayne,

What is your point exactly?

I took the quoted portion of your post as if by being "disgusted" by the lifestyle of certain other homosexuals, he was indicating that he was aware (at least subconsciously) that his own lifestyle was wrong/immoral/sinful/ ... . If that was not your meaning, then my post was applicable.

My point is that homosexuals are quick to cry "judge not." And it was interesting from my perspective to see them judging something they felt crossed the line.

Or perhaps my post does apply.

My being concerned about his excessive drinking doesn't mean that I have to give up a glass of wine with a good meal or a glass of beer with friends.

Really a totally different topic. My uncle is an addict. Every Christmas my family gathers and many bring wine and beer. This makes me sick, because it is putting my uncle in a situation that he should not have to face. He is among family, and here are his own flesh and blood tempting him. They are oblivious because they are justifying themselves because they do not have an addiction.

I have never had any alcohol in his presence since he started to have his problem and never will. I was saying that it wasn't necessary to abstain completely to be concerned about his problem and my continuing to drink when not in his presence does not make me a hypocrite.

I can see how my post could have been interpreted as my refusing to refrain from alcohol in my friend's presence - sorry for the confusion. My friend calls me a "tight-assed teetotaler" (I'm pretty sure he doesn't think I drink at all).

And for the record, my "drinking" is a glass of wine once in a while at dinner in a restaurant or on a special occasion, and about a six-pack of beer spread over several weeks.

Jesus said that to even look at a woman in lust was a sin and he said it to a people that lived under God's Mosaic law in which homosexuality was a capital offense.

http://ldolphin.org/Homo.shtml

Lorden wrote:Okay...So, i was discussing with a friend about Homosexuality. She is against the idea, and I'm for it. I don't care about the church, I believe Jesus/god don't belong in a cage and nor do i. but to the point...

Has Jesus ever said anything directly against Homosexuality? and I'm not talking about "marriage" between man and woman. and please don't waste time not answering the question and jumping around.

To ask whether Jesus said anything directly against homosexuality is I think asking the wrong thing. The grace offered through Jesus is enough to cover all sin.

Jesus did however say: "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matt 5:16) So rather than give a list of dos and don'ts, perhaps what we ought to ask of everything we do is whether it is glorifying to God?