Evidence for God from Science

In Genesis, God said the following. "Then God said, "Let us make humans in our image, in our likeness. Let them rule the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the domestic animals all over the earth, and all the animals that crawl on the earth." 27 So God created humans in his image."

My question is, who was "us?" "Our?"

Thank you,

W

Remember that God is not just one dimensional. He is speaking of the trinity. Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father were all present at creation

WConn wrote:In Genesis, God said the following. "Then God said, "Let us make humans in our image, in our likeness. Let them rule the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the domestic animals all over the earth, and all the animals that crawl on the earth." 27 So God created humans in his image."

My question is, who was "us?" "Our?"

Thank you,

W

The plural here probably means that God is talking with the divine beings who form his "heavenly court". See Job 1: 6

Sharna wrote:Remember that God is not just one dimensional. He is speaking of the trinity. Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father were all present at creation

I was unaware that JESUS was present at the creation. Did not Jesus come along a few thousand years later? Not trying to be difficult here but
I find your answer somewhat in question.

Thank you,

W

Jesus, born in the flesh came along later, yes. But scripture makes it clear,"In the beginning was the Word." (The Word is Jesus) The Word then became flesh and dwelt amongst us.
Read John chapter 1 for reference.

God saying, "Let us make man in our image," could be nothing more than royal language. No one can question that the bible paints a picture of the KINGDOM of God. It was common for rulers to talk this way. A king might refer to himself as "us", or "we" signifiying his royalty, and representing the soverignty of his Kingdom.

It is also very clear in the scriptures that Christ refers to the Kingdom of God. Not the family of God, but Kingdom of God. He also speaks that He and the Father are one. A trinitarian has no issue with this verse, because God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit are distinct persons of the one God Head. One thing for sure, this shows that God is NOT like us.

DannyM wrote:...The plural here probably means that God is talking with the divine beings who form his "heavenly court". See Job 1: 6

Historical Note and Background: The Old Testament is thoroughly Trinitarian. Remember, during the 1'st century the first Christians were all Jewish and later the Jewish religious leaders manipulated people to persecute their fellow Jews who were known as Christians. In this rejection, they abandoned the concept of the Jewish Trinity despite the Old Testament's proofs of it in order to justify their denial of Jesus as the Messiah.

70 AD came along and survivors were scatter about the known world. That tradition remains as the main stay in much of orthodox Jewish thought. So much so in fact that during the middle ages one of their teachers changed a Hebrew word (echad to echid) in the Shema to refute any idea that Jesus is who he says he is.

So relying solely on only what such Jewish writers say about the Trinity to support its denial must be understood in an historical context of what they were attempting to do: deny who Jesus is. The Jewish people are still God's covenant people and no one should hate Jews or think they are out of favor with God. Also, many Jews have returned to their roots finding the Messiah Jesus and are born again. Amen!

Many of these Jews who found the Messiah Jesus when reading the OT, see the Trinity all throughout it in how the bible uses the names we translate as God, LORD, usage of the personal pronouns I, he, his, and attachments of various names alongside Yahweh's name. The Old Testament is thoroughly Trinitarian that God is one in three distinct person's; thus, fulfilling what God says about himself in Isaiah 46:9:, “Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL - singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim — Plural), and there is none like Me…”

None like God!

So to answer your question as well as show that in Genesis account of creation the usage of the personal pronouns used when God said let us create in our image do not in any way refer to a heavenly court being involved in creation. Look at how Genesis 1:26 was written, Let us make man in our image and likeness. The grammar demonstrates that the parties mentioned in verse 26 were definitely involved in creation as Jeremiah 10:10-14 and Isaiah 44:24 clearly states.

In fact, Jeremiah 10:10-14 absolutely refutes the idea that a heavenly court was involved. I'll post the scriptures below and show you the words and how the personal pronouns are used. They reveal that only Yahweh created the heavens and earth and all that is in them.

Jer 10:10-14, "But the LORD (Yahweh) is the true God (Elohim); he is the living God (Elohim) and the everlasting (eternal) King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 11Thus shall you say to them: "The gods (Elahhs) who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."

Notice how Lord (Yahweh) is used once and God (Plural Elohim) used twice. Yahweh is the true Elohim (Majestic Plural One), he is the Elohim (Majestic Plural One) khayyim (Plural) translated as Living God. Notice two plurals are used to together — Living God which according to the rules Grammar a plural Noun used with a plural makes the noun plural as well.

This is a Trinitarian statement that is being used here showing that Yahweh is the only living Plural One there is — none like the Lord! Lastly verse 12 used the Aramaic word elahh to translate the word gods and not the Hebrew El or Elohim. This refers to foreign / false deities as well as anyone else had no part in creation. All Pseudo deities will perish from the heavens and earth as well (note verse 14). Let's continue:

Jer 10:12-13,” It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 13 When he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.

Next, notice the person pronouns used in verse 12 and 13. Each verse uses the word he. Who is then is the he being referred too? Let's look at the bible and see:

Jer 32:17, 'Ah, Lord GOD (Adoni Elohim)! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you."

Notice Adoni Elohim made the heavens and earth by his outstretched arm. Then notice what God says about one of his arms — By his arm salvation comes:

Isa 52:10 The LORD has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Isa 59:16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede; then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him.

Isa 63:5 I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me.

Isa 63:12 who caused his glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them to make for himself an everlasting name,

Jesus is referred to symbolically as the hand and arm of God as it is he who Isaiah 53:1 speaks of as well as who brought forth the salvation prophesized. This same Arm also created as we shall see:

Jer 27:5, "It is I who by my great power and my outstretched arm have made the earth, with the men and animals that are on the earth, and I give it to whomever it seems right to me."

Isa 45:12, I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host."

Look at next bible passage from Psalms as it identifies who the God of Jacob is who is identified as creating as well:

Psa 146:5-6, "Blessed is he whose help is the God (El - singular) of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD (Yahweh) his God (Elohim), 6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever..."

El is Hebrew singular for God. The God of Jacob is identified as the incarnate Jesus as that is who Jacob wrestled with and met with who met with Moses later on. Notice that God is unlike all else as He is the majestic plural one (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) for it was the Son (El of Jacob) who made heaven and earth. Don't believe me? Look at:

Isa 44:24, "Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself..."

Who redeemed us is revealed as Christ Jesus — did he not? He is known also in the OT as Yahweh your Redeemer. Next note the I AM statement followed by Yahweh who made all things. Again through the biblical symbolism- God's hand and arm created — did it not? Here again it is stated that He alone stretched out the heavens and spread out the earth all by himself. There was no heavenly court helping God create as Genesis 1:26 has been is falsely translated by blending Job 1:6 into the picture.

From here the New Testament reveals who created so look at the progression from OT to NT below:

Psa 33:6, "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host..."

Joh 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made..."

Col 1:16, "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. "

Heb 1:1-3, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high..."

Compare with Jeremiah 10:12-13 again:

Jer 10:12-13,” It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 13 When he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouse.”

Therefore the one speaking in Genesis 1:26 is Christ Jesus to the Father and Spirit. In fact the Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1:2 so therefore he is part of the Us and Our mentioned in Genesis 1:26. Think on this a bit more…

…Because who else is mentioned in the context?

All bible verse from ESV unless cited otherwise

(Please also note Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 42:5 on your own)

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Well done and answered. I have many questions, they will come as I find them.

thank you,

W

Because who else is mentioned in the context?

Well he seemed to mention "female" in Genesis 1:27. Is this what you were implying?

W

WConn wrote:Because who else is mentioned in the context?

Well he seemed to mention "female" in Genesis 1:27. Is this what you were implying?

W

The Holy Spirit (is the Spirit of God) in verse 2 and the US and OUR in verse 26 refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as involved together in creation of all things mentioned in Genesis chapter one.

For example: The Father gives the command, the Son (the Word) does the command, and the Holy Spirit gathers together and puts together, shapes what is commanded. Look at one the attributes of the Holy Spirit which mentions gathering:

Isa 34:16, “Seek and read from the book of the LORD (Yahweh): Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate. For the mouth ( Son)of the LORD (Yahweh) has commanded, and his Spirit has gathered them.”

Notes about the Holy Spirit being a person and not a force or breath: Ps 106:33 can be provoked, Gives wisdom Isa 11:2 - 1 Co 12:8 etc, Speaks Acts 13:2, can be lied too Acts 5:3-4 where the HS is also called God in verse 4. A force or mere breath cannot be lied too or called God. These passages mention a few of the Holy Spirit's living attributes.

Back to Genesis:

Gen 1:1 states, “In the beginning God (Elohim — the Majestic Plural One) created the heavens and the earth.” ESV

Psalms 33:6 gives more clues: “By the word (John 1:1-3 — the Son) of the LORD (Yahweh) the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.”

By the Son the Word of the Father heavens were made and by the Breath of the Fathers and Son's mouth here refers to the Holy Spirit ( see John 20:22) as all three were involved in creation.

Gen 1:2, “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit (Ruach) of God (Elohim) was hovering over the face of the waters.” ESV

So in verse 2 you have the Holy Spirit hovering / brooding over the face of the waters ready to do whatever is commanded. The in verses 3-25 you have the commands. Think of it this way. The Father gives the command, the Son handles the details (logos) and doing of the command, and the Holy Spirit completes by dividing, gathering, and setting things in order (i.e. power of God at work).

By the time you arrive at verse 26... you'll see whom the Us and Our are:

Gen 1:26, “Then God (Father) said, "Let us (together Father, Son, Holy Spirit) make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." ESV

Note: 1 Th 5:23, “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

I can go into more detail but this is enough for now — maybe latter I'll expand on these things if I have the time.
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Well, you certainly have a handle on things as I said before. Thank you for your input, it will take a while for me to digest your writings and understand.

Thank you.

W

B.W.

Please explain to me how any of what what you've presented me with, let alone JER 10: 10-14, refutes a heavenly court? From what you've shown me none of it touches my point. I am not disputing that God alone created everything. I am not even suggesting by his use of the plural that this means he had a helping hand/s in the creation. I'm suggesting that God did have a heavenly court around mim - not other gods, God is the only god - but a heavenly court.Call it "the company of angels" if you will. I'm prepared to be wrong if you can truly show me I'm wrong.

Dan

DannyM wrote:B.W. --- Please explain to me how any of what what you've presented me with, let alone JER 10: 10-14, refutes a heavenly court? From what you've shown me none of it touches my point. I am not disputing that God alone created everything. I am not even suggesting by his use of the plural that this means he had a helping hand/s in the creation. I'm suggesting that God did have a heavenly court around mim - not other gods, God is the only god - but a heavenly court.Call it "the company of angels" if you will. I'm prepared to be wrong if you can truly show me I'm wrong.-- Dan

Please reading your bible for your answer — what does it say to you?

Isa 44:24, "Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself..."

Jer 10:10-14, "But the LORD (Yahweh) is the true God (Elohim); he is the living God (Elohim) and the everlasting (eternal) King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 11Thus shall you say to them: "The gods (Elahhs) who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."

Jer 10:12-13,” It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 13 When he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.

Isa 45:12, I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host."

Dan a Question for you: Where in the bible does it say there was a Heavenly Court?

--Pretty clear, it was the Lord alone who created all things...

Now for those that object to the Trinity (not you Dan)

Why can't objectors to the Trinity accept that there in None like the Lord - who exist as Trinity - the Majestic Plural One who alone created all things in the beginning, who is completely self sufficient, needing no court to help or aid in creation?

Why do objectors to the Trinity want to reduce God to the same oneness of being as, say, Zeus? There is none like him as he himself says about himself in the bible so why do objectors to the Trinity want to make God like others?

To say that God was speaking to a heavenly court when he said let us make man in our image and likeness would mean we are equal to angels and no different. The bible refutes this as well:

Heb 2:6-7, “It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? 7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor…”

Notice that Two are mentioned in the text — one refers to man and the other the Messiah as man both fashioned lower than the angels yet crowned with glory... The glory is God's glory for us to be restored to be a reflection of his likeness in governing the earth where we have been assigned...

Now compare...

Isa 45:12, I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host."

Isa 44:24, "Thus says the LORD (Yahweh), your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD (Yahweh), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself..."

Gen 1:26, “Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I believe the "us" is talking about the God the Father, God the Son(Word), and God the Holy Spirit. These are 3 sides of God, just as man was made in the image of God. Man is body, mind, and spirit. We are made in his image.

B.W. and Danny M. I find that quite often Christians differ with each other in the area of interpretation. My purpose for asking questions
is to get answers and gain knowledge. Some things I can figure out for myself, somethings require an explanation. I have noted that
Christians who differ with each other can become quite contentious. It is not my intention to ask a question which then causes others
to become at odds.

Thank you both for your responses.

W

WConn wrote:B.W. and Danny M. I find that quite often Christians differ with each other in the area of interpretation. My purpose for asking questions
is to get answers and gain knowledge. Some things I can figure out for myself, somethings require an explanation. I have noted that
Christians who differ with each other can become quite contentious. It is not my intention to ask a question which then causes others
to become at odds.

Thank you both for your responses.

W

I agree with this assessment. I do find this contentiousness in scientific and secular circles as well. Usually when someone has strong convictions about the subject. None stronger than "religious" beliefs. I also believe that no matter how much arguing is done here most "Christians" don't hold grudges. I have no problems others stating their belief nor will I allow something that I believe to be important slip by without a comment. I also believe that differences help make your faith stronger. It makes you study and search out what you believe and why you believe it.