Evidence for God from Science

So I just found out that my insurance company "will will cover any abortion, for any reason, any time during pregnancy" and "is also one of only 11 US companies which is given a 100% approval rate by homosexual activists."

I can't handle the idea that my premium dollars are being used to murder children. If I drop today, though, my wife won't be able to get coverage until after the baby comes in November. Now, the chances are way better than not that the baby will be just fine and that no complications will arise, but that "what if" is precisely why we have insurance. I don't have a problem paying for the normal costs of delivery myself.

Is this a situation where you just drop the coverage and trust God to take care of it, or would such an action be akin to Jephthah's hasty vow in Judges 11:29-40?

HELP!!!

Jac3510 wrote:So I just found out that my insurance company "will will cover any abortion, for any reason, any time during pregnancy" and "is also one of only 11 US companies which is given a 100% approval rate by homosexual activists."

I can't handle the idea that my premium dollars are being used to murder children. If I drop today, though, my wife won't be able to get coverage until after the baby comes in November. Now, the chances are way better than not that the baby will be just fine and that no complications will arise, but that "what if" is precisely why we have insurance. I don't have a problem paying for the normal costs of delivery myself.

Is this a situation where you just drop the coverage and trust God to take care of it, or would such an action be akin to Jephthah's hasty vow in Judges 11:29-40?

HELP!!!

Would God want you to put your wife and unborn baby in harm's way? I think not. Besides, if as Christians we were to stop dealing with every company we have a fundamental moral disagreement with we'd be nomads, living in the desert. The fact is that your premium payments are for a specific purpose, i.e. to cover your health needs as they arise, not as a contribution to the company's bottom line nor as an endorsement of or consent for its other activities. Wait until your baby is born and you're in a better position to change insurance companies without jeopardizing their well-being before you drop them.

I'm going to talk to the hospital later today, but I don't know that either my wife or child would be in harms way if I went the self-pay route. What would be exposed to danger would be my bank account if something went wrong.

I'm looking at switching to medishare when this is all said and done. They are a Christian organization that's more medical-bill sharing than insurance (and cheaper, too). I'm very impressed with what I've seen. But they don't cover preexisting conditions, so on the off chance that something is wrong with Elly (and all indications are now that there is not), they would not cover any expenses related to it, which, of course, I understand and support.

And Byblos, if I stay with Aetna until December, you're reasoning is what I would have to employ, but I just don't know if I fundamentally agree with it. I mean, I see what you are saying. You can't stop doing business with ALL companies that support immoral practices, but that doesn't mean that you can support just any that does. "Pick your battles" comes to mind. There's something of a sliding scale here, and the issue of child-murder goes beyond Christian morality into good old fashioned evil. It's not like I'm worried that they're giving money to Hindu Temples. The gay advocacy thing bothers me, but not enough to tempt me to drop them early. But the abortion thing . . . that bothers me. A lot.

Kudos Jac for having solid Christian morals of which our country desperately lacks and desperately needs. I can relate to your dilemma for sure. I self paid my wife's pregnancy (doctors visits, tests, and delivery) not due to a moral dilemma but because the pregnancy was preexisting. I knew full well I would have to pay my wife's share of the bill but the insurance company was supposed to pick up the tab for the birth of my son and all that followed the birth which they didn't. So I was left paying upwards in the 10,000 range for the hospital bill, no complications or anything like that. With that said maybe you could think of it as you taking money from them. I'm sure your premiums aren't close to what it's going to cost to have your baby between doctors visits for your wife and then the hospital bill. So whatever they pay out that is above what your premium is that's less money for them.
Congrats, by the way!

The way you've argued on this issue Jac, I would expect you to be true to your ideals. No loopholes and no excuses. If that means letting your "evil" insurance go and paying everything yourself even if it means taking on huge debt for years to come then that's what I would expect from you for you to be true to your beliefs as I understand them based on what you've shared. After all, you wouldn't want to compromise in any way with baby murderers simply to save money to get your child delivered right?

And if you become unemployed in the process and then sick while uninsured, that's no excuse for compromise of any kind whatsoever either. You just suffer with whatever illness you have until you die or get better by a miracle never seek help of any kind for yourself or your family unless it is an alm or until you can pay for it out of pocket yourself (due to a miracle) or get a program like medishare to pick up the pieces (but they won't cover preexisting conditions).

But then, you'll never have to actually worry about that jac like so many others. Because you have money andd one has to have money in the first place to think like you do believing they'll never actually be in that situation. It's easy to be on a high horse when you're actually on a high horse. I fully expect you to do the right thing based on the no compromise ideals you've shared here no matter what the cost to you or your family. Let us know how that works out for you.

Oh, how the acid drops from your words, AoK. Do you really think such sarcasm toward a fellow Christian is appropriate for a believer?

I had originally typed up quite a response to the underlying argument, but I decided to let it go. You're going to think whatever you want to think of me, anyway. You've passed your moral judgments. AoK hath spoken. Perhaps you feel comfortable standing in the place of God. I don't. I still hope the insanity in Washington can be put aside so that a real solution to the problem with health care access to be addressed. You want to keep looking at me as a terrible, heartless person in spite of that, then fine. But I'm not about to turn my family's health and financial situation into a public debate.

David Wilkerson's dad once told him, "Son, the dog that yelps the loudest is the one that got hit the hardest." I'm not sure if that's me or you... lol. But seriously, if you are going to seek perfection on this earth for other people shouldn't you lead by example? It's a fair question and all I was saying.

What I think is that you should let the insurance company pay the bill as contracted and then change afterwards to medishare if you like. Seems to me in the Old Testament there was provision for one bringing an offering to the Lord AFTER they had realized they sinned no?

Now let's get along.

nd925 wrote:With that said maybe you could think of it as you taking money from them. I'm sure your premiums aren't close to what it's going to cost to have your baby between doctors visits for your wife and then the hospital bill. So whatever they pay out that is above what your premium is that's less money for them.
Congrats, by the way!

I'm sorry about your situation, nd. But, I'm glad there were no complications! We aren't expecting any. Everything has been fine so far, but you never know, obviously, what can happen in the delivery room.

The above quote is interesting. You are the second person to bring it up. When all is said and done, I will have given them about $2000. They'll come out of pocket around $8000 on this, assuming no complications. I could, then, look at it not as giving money to them, but as preventing them from using $6K . . . I would if I were a teleologist, but alas, I'm not.

Another friend of mine put it this way: "It's a bit like being on the Titanic with your pregnant wife. You know there are women & children out there who need help & protection, but God would expect you to help your wife & child first and only when you have them in safety would He want you to offer your help to others." I think that captures the heart of it. To what (or whom) is my first responsibility? My wife and I will talk and pray about it.

I do feel better than I did before, though, for one simple reason: it is a dilemma. By definition, neither action is a good one. God knows my heart, so I leave the judgment to Him. He knows I want to honor Him first and foremost, and I trust Him to both guide us in this decision and judge our decision in the proper way. So long as we seek Him first, I think we will do the right thing, whichever it may be. Hey, if it were clear cut, this never would have come up, right? Just keep us in your prayers, and thanks for the kind words. And congrats to you, too, as well. I'll let you know how much I'm loving daddyhood in a few months.

edit:

AoK - Perhaps my reply was harsh, whether I was right or wrong. I just want to do the right thing, and it is precisely BECAUSE I feel so strongly on the abortion issue that this keeps me up at night. This isn't a financial question for me. It's a right/wrong question for me . . . it's about my ability to support and care for my family against a firm moral position I believe is biblical.

I do apologize for any offense I caused you or any callousness that may have come through on my side regarding your situation. For what it is worth, you are in my prayers. Honestly, I don't know how much that's worth. Faith without works is dead. Shy of us actually DOING something about people in your situation, we can empathize and pray all we want. At the end of the day, you still go to bed without help from the people whom God has called to serve you--the Church (not the gov't). Please don't take my political opposition to a fiscal idea as callousness towards your personal position. I believe we should work towards reform, both political and ecclesiastical. So, again, I do apologize sincerely if I've let my objective political stance get in the way of what I believe ought to be the case.

On getting along, you have a deal, sir.

No problem. Be honest. I'm starting to see you do have a heart and aren't that ice cold logician I thought you were. I'll try not to manifest more of whatever personality disorder I have than is necessary.. lol. I apologize for whatever callousness comes across (real and/or imagined). It's all just iron on iron to me and that sometimes throws sparks. Instead of just play acting within the confines of modern liberal induced political correctness, we're actually building something here and I think that it's a better worldview for each of us. That takes real interaction with real people being real with themselves and each other. Amen.

I'm sorry about your situation, nd. But, I'm glad there were no complications! We aren't expecting any. Everything has been fine so far, but you never know, obviously, what can happen in the delivery room.

Thanks for the sentiment, it was a long time ago, the boy is paid off, lol.

Another friend of mine put it this way: "It's a bit like being on the Titanic with your pregnant wife. You know there are women & children out there who need help & protection, but God would expect you to help your wife & child first and only when you have them in safety would He want you to offer your help to others." I think that captures the heart of it. To what (or whom) is my first responsibility? My wife and I will talk and pray about it.

That's a great way to look at it too.

Just keep us in your prayers, and thanks for the kind words. And congrats to you, too, as well. I'll let you know how much I'm loving daddyhood in a few months.

Will do. Thanks, the boy is 15 going to be 16, I need all the prayers I can get, lol. You'll love daddyhood for sure, there's nothing like it in the world.

I'm glad to see the feathers flying here got resolved and sorry for not being alert to it earlier. Iron sharpening iron is one things, but sparks flying from swords drawn and swinging are something else.

Jac, that's a tough scenario you describe. I think when you become aware of a situation like that, then you're responsible to follow your conscience and do what you believe to be right.

As I see it, you have to determine what the impact is and the context of the situation. If you see it as a moral absolute in which no Christian under any circumstances should do business with a company that pays for abortions to the degree this one does, then you would need to do the following,

1. End the policy as immediately as you can regardless of whether or not you have a viable option and trust God.

If you see this as a decision to navigate then your decision tree could include the following things to navigate through:

1. Do you have options for other companies and have you examined their policies to determine that an option exists that you could with a clear conscience change to?

2. Examine the timing of the change and the risk to your wife and child. It's a false dilemma in my opinion to entertain the argument of God's Providence as if that were your conviction then insurance shouldn't have ever been an option in the first place. It appears to me that insurance in our culture and economy is an established practise and part and parcel of how medical care is done. If that is indicative of a lack of faith, then there are Christian Organizations that exist for the banding together of believers to either insure or after the fact bear one anothers burdens by making payments on each others behalf.

3. I think you have a primary responsibility to your wife and child and a strong secondary responsibility to the unborn in general. In general, if I were to counsel parishoners who came to me with this dilemma I would counsel to hold the insurance the minimal length of time needed to meet that primary obligation and then after that has passed, act upon the conviction and change companies to insurance methods to one that your conscience dictates is an acceptable option.

I wouldn't fault anyone for taking a stronger and more immediate stance and I may well be criticized for that advice by some. It's coming both from experience as a former cancer patient who endured years of financial hardship because an insurer defaulted on their obligation by declaring bankruptcy and I was left with huge unpaid bills. The impact of that upon my life and family is still being felt, despite God's provision over many years to help us to pay those bills, which we did. It's also coming as a former pastor who's seen people wrap themselves around the axle of things like boycotts and social protests to where they've become more defined by what they are against than what they are for and recognizing that we are in the world but not of it and perfect solutions to every dilemma sometimes do not exist and so we do the best we can with the light God gives us to make the next step.

Other options that might exist for you to consider are what impact you might have upon the insurer to change their practice. You might consider if you efforts and financial risk would be better placed into providing money and time to minister to pregnant mothers to where your impact was more positive and direct in saving the unborn as opposed to making abortions more dangerous and risky for the mothers. (Understand that I am pro-life. There's a difference in my mind however in an emphasis that reaches out to provide counselling and support for a troubled pregnancy versus a distant position that simply attempts to make the situation seemingly more risky and difficult). The two are not mutually exclusive, but there is definitely room for a question of balance and emphasis that i think is fair to ask.

Whatever you do Jac, I'd encourage you above all to trust God and move from a position of conscience and relationship. This is an important decision, but as a believer your relationship with God is secure and safe regardless of which decision you make. Don't make a decision from a position of perceived guilt or condemnation from God if you make the "wrong" choice. That is the position of a slave and while Paul paints himself as a bondslave to God and Christ, it's in the context of the debt that has already been forgiven and a response of gratitude, not fear. There is no condemnation and your greatest responsibility to listen to your conscience and through it look to hear what God is saying is right and when you've settled that in your heart, move forward with confidence and trust, knowing that God can and may protect you from the negative consequences of your decision, even if He doesn't, that you know in your heart you did what you believe to be right and even more than that what gives you a sense of peace and trust in God's work and direction in your life.

I believe you'll do all this and more and I'd encourage you to see it as a growth opportunity. Consider too, whatever path you follow from here as a result of that decision, God may use your going through it to reach out to others in the future that he brings across your path. That's been a part of what I take comfort in with regard to some of the painful experiences of my past, some of which I may even look back and wonder or even regret the decision I made. We're not given the luxury of always being right. But we are secure in the luxury of always remaining in right relationship with God through Christ, if we rely upon Him, and not our efforts.

Hope this helps.

bart

God's not going to part any red seas for jac just because he has anxiety related worrying over a provision of his insurance contract. He didn't for me and He doesn't for the vast majority of people. He's not a gumball machine. Jac's not suddenly going to come into a fortune to pay the extensive costs associated with a maternity because he trusted God after letting his insurance go. What's going to happen is if he dumps his insurance: he'll have to finance and pay for everything himself. If every major evangelical pastor in America is OK with having their children delivered and their insurance company pay for it despite the abortion provisions standard in almost all contracts today, then why should jac ruin his financial situation over it. If it's OK for them and 99.9999999999% of their congregations then in my opinion it is fine for jac. Have the delivery and move on. Create a model home for the kid so he doesn't have to end up with a life of suffering like I have had to. We don't live in a perfect world and God knows that. That's why there's grace. And vote for health care reform so poor suffering and dying people can get access to health care. Quit judging us and leaving us to twist in the wind because we fell on times so hard we can't get up lest God judge you for it someday. Health care is not tyranny. It's a necessity.

Jac3510 wrote:So I just found out that my insurance company "will will cover any abortion, for any reason, any time during pregnancy" and "is also one of only 11 US companies which is given a 100% approval rate by homosexual activists."

I can't handle the idea that my premium dollars are being used to murder children. If I drop today, though, my wife won't be able to get coverage until after the baby comes in November. Now, the chances are way better than not that the baby will be just fine and that no complications will arise, but that "what if" is precisely why we have insurance. I don't have a problem paying for the normal costs of delivery myself.

Is this a situation where you just drop the coverage and trust God to take care of it, or would such an action be akin to Jephthah's hasty vow in Judges 11:29-40?

HELP!!!

Aren't you living in a country governed by men that promote this? Maybe you should also think about moving out of the country...
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ageofknowledge wrote:God's not going to part any red seas for jac just because he has anxiety related worrying over a provision of his insurance contract. He didn't for me and He doesn't for the vast majority of people. He's not a gumball machine. Jac's not suddenly going to come into a fortune to pay the extensive costs associated with a maternity because he trusted God after letting his insurance go. What's going to happen is if he dumps his insurance: he'll have to finance and pay for everything himself. If every major evangelical pastor in America is OK with having their children delivered and their insurance company pay for it despite the abortion provisions standard in almost all contracts today, then why should jac ruin his financial situation over it. If it's OK for them and 99.9999999999% of their congregations then in my opinion it is fine for jac. Have the delivery and move on. Create a model home for the kid so he doesn't have to end up with a life of suffering like I have had to. We don't live in a perfect world and God knows that. That's why there's grace. And vote for health care reform so poor suffering and dying people can get access to health care. Quit judging us and leaving us to twist in the wind because we fell on times so hard we can't get up lest God judge you for it someday. Health care is not tyranny. It's a necessity.

If you're responding to what I said, I don't recognize what I said tying into your reaction.