No point

[Cactus]

I have no idea what this is going to have to do with Christian Theology(something about knowing Christ I am sure) But really I think that this(what I am going to tell you) has been my problem.

Being a Christian only in your mind. Believing really isn't enough. Learning the bible and hearing sermons is not really worth it unless you take message not only into your mind but also into your heart, your life and your actions. I feel that is what my problem was(and maybe still is) You can not just listen, learn and believe...you must act!

So does your own faith save you or is it something about god taking pity on you? Is the faith you have only real if others know by your acts who and what you are?

[cslewislover]

In The Unlikely Disciple, the author gives an example of this. A guy he knew in the dorm of the Christian Univ campus was a Christian, and said he made a decision for Christ when he was 16 (I think). But there was some service there where he felt a change, and knew that now he had to serve the Lord and he really was a Christian. It was some kind-of life-changing experience. He talked about it too, about living your life just believing and not really acting out your faith, and then something changing, making you want to live your life in faith. This is something other than rationality - it's a conviction, like from the heart and will. The book also gives other examples of people who say they are Christians but don't act like it, and how that is perceived by non-Christians (negatively - faith ought to be visible and not hypocritical - even though we all make mistakes, of course).

Welcome back, Cactus! Good to see you on the board again.

[ageofknowledge]

Obviously everyone will disagree with me as usual and go on about the multitude of opportunity and the dire need all churches have for volunteers and whatnot but MY experiences were that when I tried to get involved with various ministries at the churches I attended for about twenty years, found they really didn't want my help or would give me a toilet plunger and try to make me the janitor (a complete waste of my time and talents).

Which is why I finally just began starting my own ministries. I liked computers so I worked with a senior AIG pastor to start a computer ministry in the 90's. We took computer donations from Fortune 500 companies, made turn key LANs out of them, and distributed them to Teen Challenges and inner city ministries from San Fracisco to Tijuana.

I've started a few ministries over the years and they all have had at least some success.

If you are bored sitting in the pew listening to ministry reports of rich kids from model Christian families with paid for college educations out on the mission field having a great time spending your tithe money overseas, and find your church really just wants you to keep sitting there and paying and cleaning toilets or doing the jobs no one else wants to, then I say start your own ministry.

Most churches won't support ministries you start though. I found out quick that I wasn't plugged into the political foodchain properly as a third generation member of the church that grew up in it. Those privledged kids I spoke of earlier: they got the funds. Not a freshly saved veteran off the street. If that's you, don't despair. Bypass them. Find your own doners or better yet make it self-supporting like myself and the people I influenced to donate their time with me did and GO for it. I still have tons of mail from people I never met that were helped by those ministries and I'm still volunteering to help Africans get a Christian education and CHW affect positive political changes, etc...

It's your choice though. As I see it, you can sit in the pew and pay; get involved at your church (if you can make it work out); join a parachurch ministry (always a good option); or start your own ministry.

Or listen to the church mouses here go on about how unplugging toilets is God's will for your life and starting at the bottom and spending years of your life grinding away as a janitor will teach you humility and all this other nonsense they come up with instead of putting your talents to work and seeing peoples lives changed in real life. That's another choice. I hope you don't make that one.

What are your interests?

[TallMan]

. . . Is the faith you have only real if others know by your acts who and what you are?

Speaking of acts, Acts shows how the early church reacted to the faith they received.
I would expect people that are of the same faith to act in the same way.

They first received the Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues), preached the same to Jew and Gentile and became united with those that agreed. God's Acts, his wonders and miraculous signs were seen following the lives of these people.

[Cactus]

I'm quite glad you mention the acts of the apostles because that is one of my favourite books[in the bible] which is funny because O find quite a lot of the old testament much more exciting than the "new" one.

But as a reaction shot to how they responded to jesus' call to arms its quite an example, however you can see how the apostles are very much human and therefore just like us. It would be quite silly to suggest that the books would have edited out the negative details to show certain people who made it in a better light if it wasn't true...so for me it seems like a trustworthy enough source even if it is more of a map or guide rather than a rule book.(rules are rather rigid and inflexible anyway who wants to live by the rules!) I would much rather follow a guideline to how you should live than have some unbreakable rules.

[Jac3510]

Believing really isn't enough.

Really?

• And Abraham believed in the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6)
  
  Truly, truly, I say to you: whoever believes in Me has everlasting life (John 6:47)
  
  These things have been written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and taht by believing you may life in His name (John 20:31)
  
  He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31)

I could quote over 200, but really, one should be enough. The Bible says that we are saved through believing in Christ. I would be very careful about saying that the Bible is wrong on this . . .

Now, am I saying that we should not act in accordance with our faith? Of course not. But those actions are neither required for nor are proof of our faith. We do them in service to God for other reasons . . . to express our gratitude, to bring Him glory, to get the most out of life (who would have thought that God's commands are actually for our good?!?), to earn rewards in the next life, to please Him, to avoid discipline in this life, etc. There are many motivations. None of them are related to Hell.

On the other hand, the Bible says that if you don't believe in Jesus you WILL go to Hell. See John 3:17-18. The context there is what a person has to do to be saved. So if a person says that faith alone is NOT enough, then they believe they are saved by some combination of faith and works, and in doing so, are calling Jesus a liar. To call Him a liar is not to believe in Him.

Salvation is a black and white matter, my friend. Faith alone to be saved, or faith plus anything else and be condemned. Either you trust Jesus and Jesus ALONE for your salvation, with complete disregard for anything you have done, are doing, or will ever do . . . either you rely simply and SOLELY on His work for salvation and let Him do it for you, or you rely, to some degree, on yourself, thereby removing yourself from the grace of God.

So yes, sir . . . believing is most definitely enough!

God bless

[Cactus]

believing is enough if it is real and it is real if it shows outwardly...perhaps if i put it like that you would understand?

Abraham still had to act on his belief...he did prepare to sacrifice his son didn't he?

[Jac3510]

I understand exactly what you mean. I'm saying, with all due respect, that you are wrong. Works have NO PART of salvation.

Let's take your most recent example and let me ask you a very simple question:

1. If good works necessarily follow from TRUE belief, how can you know that you have TRULY believed without good works? That is, how can you know that you are saved without good works?

2. Can you show me any place in the Bible where "true" faith is distinguished from "false" faith? Perhaps you should consider, to take but one example, John 12:42.

[Cactus]

of course they have no part in it...but what kind of person would you be and where would the faith really be if you didn't do nice things? If you was just a horrible person and the belief was only in your head and not your heart(no emotion about it) what kind of faith is that? I don't think its a very nice kind.

[ageofknowledge]

I understand exactly what you mean. I'm saying, with all due respect, that you are wrong. Works have NO PART of salvation.

Jac,

If people's works play zero part in their salvation, then how do you normalize scriptures like Matthew 25:31-46 where Jesus says:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

(NIV translation)

Jesus is separating people based on their works (or lack of them) and assigning a final destination of heaven or hell dependent on them.

Please explain.

[Gabrielman]

You know I have always wondered about that myself. I believe that through our faith we are saved, but faith without works is dead. One would assume that if you loved God and you accepted His gift of salvation you would want to do something for Him. If you accept but then idaly squander your blessing, then you are like the man who went out in the field and burried his talent. *looks up parable* Try Matthew 25:14, or Luke 19:11. Sorry but I am not going to write them out, you should just look them up . I said that faith without works is dead, but that was also said by Paul somwhere in the Bible... let me look that up... Okay it's James 2:20 and it reads "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" The very verse before says "Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (both from KJV)
This shows that if you don't have works in your faith that there is no point to it. Now that doesn't mean you should go out and do some thing massive and hard to do work for God. A simple witnessing, an act of kindness, is all it takes if you put God first in it.
That of course will bring the question of death bed confessions. I believe in them, think of it like this... If you are dying with your family around you and you realize for what ever reason God is real and He wants you to be with Him, then you will confess with your tounge his glory (witnessing to the choir, but they need it too!). You must confess Christ with you tounge, imo, if you truly love Him. There is also another parable that adresses this. It is the one where the man... you know what I'll just look it up! It's the workers in the Vineyard and it is in Matthew 20:1.
For some reason I agree with you Age... never thought that would happen! lol.
God bless you all!
Hmmm... let me clarify something. You cannot be saved by your works, not by a long shot. You must have faith in Christ and be willing to serve Him. Your works are His and they glorify Him. You CANNOT BE SAVED BY WORKS ALONE. So salvation its self is not affected by works, but faith is, and with a dead faith you give up salvation.

[Cactus]

I said that faith without works is dead, but that was also said

Just what i have come to be quite very certain of

[Jac3510]

of course they have no part in it...but what kind of person would you be and where would the faith really be if you didn't do nice things? If you was just a horrible person and the belief was only in your head and not your heart(no emotion about it) what kind of faith is that? I don't think its a very nice kind.

You didn't answer my question about how you know you are saved, Cactus.

If works necessarily flow from saving faith, how can you know you have really believed?

You didn't answer my question about a biblical basis for the distinction you are making, Cactus.

If the Bible no where distinguishes between "real" and "false" faith, why do you?

Given your response above, I'll ask you now another question.

What does being a nice person have to do with going to heaven? What, for that matter, does the kind of person you have to do with where you spend eternity?

[Jac3510]

AoK:

1. The first rule in exegesis is that you never interpret clear scripture in the light of difficult scripture. This is judgment of the sheep and goats, which will take place at the end of the Tribulation and immediately before the Millennium, and has to do with how the people then related to Israel. Obviously, this has important things to say, but whatever it says (and it is hotly debated), it can't overthrow such clear verses as John 3:16.

2. During this point in history, God is back to dealing with Israel. The time of the Gentiles, and the time of the Church, is past. Salvation for the individual will be more like it was during the OT times. A case can be made that to scorn Israel demonstrates a lack of faith, not because faith necessarily results in good works, but because the saving proclamation relates directly to Israel's kingdom.

Always remember when studying the synoptic gospels (especially Matthew) that these are Jewish gospels written to portray Jesus as the King/Messiah of Israel. If you confuse the message of the kingdom with the message of the gospel, you will get major confusion.

[Cactus]

You didn't answer my question about how you know you are saved, Cactus.

If works necessarily flow from saving faith, how can you know you have really believed?

You didn't answer my question about a biblical basis for the distinction you are making, Cactus.

If the Bible no where distinguishes between "real" and "false" faith, why do you?

Given your response above, I'll ask you now another question.

What does being a nice person have to do with going to heaven? What, for that matter, does the kind of person you have to do with where you spend eternity?

Maybe I am just making judgements over things that I have no business dealing with. I can't help but be myself. I just thought it was pointless being a Christian if it didn't exert some kind of change over you...was I wrong?