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Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:05 am
by Alan McDougall
Reading the appalling account of genocide of the Midianite people by Moses and his army makes me doubt God told him to carry out this awful crime against humanity. After all the Midianites were also God creation and children.
The murder of woman and children makes me doubt the scriptures please help me in this
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:08 am
by jlay
That has always been tough for me as well. I can remember the 1st time I read this. I grieved for weeks over this passage.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/586
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:43 am
by Alan McDougall
I went to the link but still refuse to believe that God will instruct someone to kill little children In contrast Jesus said "Blessed are the children for of such is the kingdom of heaven " Remember Jesus is God and God is the same yesterday today and forever is he??
Just to add a bit more to the topic
Numbers Chapter 31?
I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depicted by the lord Jesus Christ. !
The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever. This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving God,
1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites.
In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you.
Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.
2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill.
Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.
3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.
In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger
4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males. So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have "not had sex with a man".
How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not. There was definitely no gynaecologists way back in 3000 B.C. WERE THERE?
So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman's age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.
5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation.?
Am I blaspheming or sacrilegious?? I hope not help me if you can
6) AlanMcDougall13/7/2007
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:15 am
by ageofknowledge
"Those inhabitants were destroyed because of their wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4; 18:9-14). They were so evil that their Creator no longer could abide their corruption. That they had numerous opportunities to repent is evident from the prophetic books (Nineveh did repent, for example, and for a time stayed the day of destruction)."
They were so wicked they had long ago murdered off any rightous people of accountability in their midst just as happened in the days of Noah when God had to perform a hard reset to get things back on track. I wouldn't worry about it. It's ancient history and as a christian doesn't threaten me. I worry more about atheists that gain power and try to murder off everyone that doesn't go along with their Marxist pogrom.
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:27 am
by jlay
I'm curious Alan, do you have a problem reconciling the biblical flood. Do you think there were children killed in the biblical flood?
In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you.
Yes he did.
And Jesus will judge all at the end of time. Jesus actually speaks some very harsh words as recorded in the NT. Do I need to provide some here? Did you know God struck down two people for telling one lie, as recorded in the book of Acts?
The question is, do the harsh judgments in the OT jive with the Jesus of the NT?
Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.
How does God COMMANDING go against His own word? It doesn't.
4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males. So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Now you are just adding to the text. It is clear that Moses anger was because they had disobeyed the command. No Where does it mention rape?
I'm not going to sit here and tell you it is easy to digest or reconcile. Lord knows it has caused me great distress. Just as a flood that killed infants, and grandmothers, and more. But, just as we can't fathom these events, we can not fathom the infinite holiness of God and the righteousness of His judgments on the wicked.
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:33 am
by cslewislover
Alan McDougall wrote:
5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation.?
Am I blaspheming or sacrilegious?? I hope not help me if you can.
6) AlanMcDougall13/7/2007
So do you go to every Christian board you find and post this, from over two years ago? It makes it seem like you're trying dissuade people about God. I'm just wondering . . . we certainly like new people with new questions. I like what Age posted. I have Hard Sayings of the Bible, and this verse isn't even discussed.
However, the Encycolepedia of Bible Difficulties does mention it. I'll quote the conclusion: "Was this action morally justified? Those who wish to argue that it was cruel and uncalled for will have to argue with God, for He commanded it. But it seems quite apparent in the light of all the circumstances and the background of this crisis that the integrity of the entire nation was at stake. Had the threat to Israel's existence as a covenant nation been dealt with any less severely, it is extremely doubtful that Israel would have been able to conquer Canaan at all, or claim the Land of Promise as a sacred trust from God. The massacre was as regrettable as a radical surgery performed on the ailing body of a cancer victim. If this life is to be preserved, the diseased portion must be completely cut away. (Further discussion concerning this whole problem of extermination will be found in connection with Joshua 6:21 . . .). (Gleason L. Archer Jr., pp 142-143).
God is God, and He doesn't change. We live in the church age now, with the Holy Spirit to help us. God is not currently protecting Israel in the same way as He was before (since they were still developing then), and His Word is being demonstrated in a different way as well.
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:44 am
by Jac3510
May I suggest the following short thread?
Moses' shame?
I think the issue was resolved there . . .
God bless
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:47 am
by Alan McDougall
Thus it is true, The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. God being God can do exactly what he wants to without asking my opinion on the matter, even go back on his own word
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:16 am
by Jac3510
Alan McDougall wrote:Thus it is true, The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. God being God can do exactly what he wants to without asking my opinion on the matter, even go back on his own word
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, Alan? God can't go back on His own word. That would mean He changed, which He cannot do . . . ?
I don't know if you are still struggling with the passage at hand. Did you read the thread I suggested? It isn't long.
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:57 am
by Gman
Alan McDougall wrote:Reading the appalling account of genocide of the Midianite people by Moses and his army makes me doubt God told him to carry out this awful crime against humanity. After all the Midianites were also God creation and children.
The murder of woman and children makes me doubt the scriptures please help me in this
Alan, a lot of it has to do with the
nephilim. The nephilim were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and human women (genetically altered). If you study the scriptures, these camps included these nephilim offspring. That is why God instructed the Israelis to kill them. They were a desperately wicked people with killing only on their minds. No where else will you ever find the destruction of children in scripture.
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:51 pm
by Gman
Besides if you really want to boil this all down, we should also rationalize this same concept to the nations that harbor nuclear weapons. After all, this weapon would not only destroy women and children but a whole lot more. And we have used it before in the past... On civilians too. We are just as guilty. Was it justified? We still carry the weapon and the policy is still there to use it only under certain circumstances. And this is the year 2009? We still have the capability and could still use it today.. Again, we are just as guilty...
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:21 am
by Alan McDougall
Gman wrote:Besides if you really want to boil this all down, we should also rationalize this same concept to the nations that harbor nuclear weapons. After all, this weapon would not only destroy women and children but a whole lot more. And we have used it before in the past... On civilians too. We are just as guilty. Was it justified? We still carry the weapon and the policy is still there to use it only under certain circumstances. And this is the year 2009? We still have the capability and could still use it today.. Again, we are just as guilty...
But no one especially God commands us to do it,
this is a serious question and this verse had a bad effect on my faith and I really need help overcoming this stumbling block. By the way countless Christians are also perplexed by Numbers 31
Alan
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:25 am
by Alan McDougall
Gman wrote:Alan McDougall wrote:Reading the appalling account of genocide of the Midianite people by Moses and his army makes me doubt God told him to carry out this awful crime against humanity. After all the Midianites were also God creation and children.
The murder of woman and children makes me doubt the scriptures please help me in this
Alan, a lot of it has to do with the
nephilim. The nephilim were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and human women (genetically altered). If you study the scriptures, these camps included these nephilim offspring. That is why God instructed the Israelis to kill them. They were a desperately wicked people with killing only on their minds. No where else will you ever find the destruction of children in scripture.
You are the first Christian that has given my a reasonable answer and way to rationalise Numbers 31 with my Christian faith. I will go to the links suggested and report back
God Bless You
Alan
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:55 am
by jlay
God can't go back on His own word. That would mean He changed, which He cannot do . . . ?
Not in the sense that humnas change their minds. But God can stay one judgment that was GOING to happen, in favor of another judgment. The scripture backs that up.
From 1 Kings 20: 2-6
In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: 5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.'
Would it be an unfair assesment to say, that God changed His mind? In human terms, yes. The outcome Isaiah gave was a true one. If Hezekiah had not responded in such a way, then this fate would have come true. It was from the Lord. But there was another path already in place. And God intertwined the choice of Hezekiah into his Soverign will. Both were true.
Just as it was true that Ninevah would have been destroyed, had they not repented.
Re: Please rationalise Numbers 31 in light of a loving god?
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:35 am
by Jac3510
As you noted, J, God didn't change His mind in those passages. Since He didn't change His mind, we can't say He changed (which is good, because God cannot change). So, in that case, my question to Alan still stands. In any case, I really don't see why anybody has a problem with this passage. Even outside of Gman's nephilim argument, there ample justification in the text itself, as Danny and I discussed in the linked thread.