Evidence for God from Science

Hi When Jesus accepted me as his new child I was taught that we are all going to be snatched away in the rapture of the saints. Since then I have thought a lot about this idea and it poses enormous problems for both man and GOD

Guys guide me through this please I need your help

When the church is completed, Christ will return and rapture her to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16-18). Then will come the marriage and supper of the Lamb, when the bride will be united with her Bridegroom forever. There are various views of when this will happen including pretribulation, preterism, partial-rapture, midtribulationism, pre-wrath view, and post tribulation.

There is a wide gamut of views on the Tribulation, most of which are within the pale of orthodoxy. Nonetheless, a few comments are in order. First, extreme preterism is heretical, since it claims that the final resurrection and Christ's second coming have already occurred (cf. 2 Tim. 2:18). However, belief in none of the other views is a test of doctrinal orthodoxy, as judged either by being part of the great creeds or confessions of the early
church or by its salvific importance.

Second, any particular view's degree of certainty on the Tribulation within orthodoxy falls significantly short of absolute or even moral certainty. There simply is not enough evidence to be beyond all doubt on this matter.

Third, it does seem, however, that one can attain a reasonable degree of probability on the matter, at least on the central points. Or, to put it another way, there does seem to be a best explanation of the many possibilities. By this is meant the view which, given all the biblical data, offers the most plausible explanation. It is in this context that most Christians offer a pretribulational conclusion to the rapture question.

What specific questions do you have?

Although the term rapture never appears in the NT, the concept is there. AOK provided the scripture, (1 Thess. 4:16-18) which clearly indicates an event that will occur sometime in the future. That's about where the agreement within the church stops.

Specifically, what were you taught, and what is the problem?

I at one time believed strongly in the rapture. However, my spirit was not lining up with my belief. Recently I started studying this out to see what I could come up with. The more I study the more I believe that there will be no rapture. There are several reasons for this. First, Jesus tells us that we would go through trail and tribulations (2Th 1:4). Secondly, following Jesus was never meant to be easy, Jesus told us that the world would hate us for his sake (Jn 15:18-19). Now into the meat of the subject, Jesus told us that in the end times that there would be a great falling away from the church (2Th 2:3). Now what would cause this great falling away of those who professed to be Christians but great persecution which I believe will happen during the tribulation. It surly isn't because the church is so strict and keeps to the teachings of Christ in today's church. The church in the western world today looks almost the same as the world. We have as much fornication, adultery divorce and even abortion as the world does. The tribulation will shake out the false believer's and leave only the true believers behind. In Mt 24:9-13 and Mk 13:11-13 it clearly indicates that Christians are going to go through the tribulation. In talks again how the world will persecute us, and then how Christians will become offended and turn on each other, however it ends with "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved". How can we endure to the end if we have already been raptured? Another good indicator that we are going to go through the rapture is Daniels prophecy of end times. Daniel is very precise in the numbering of years and days of the end, why? If all those who believe in Christ are gone who is going to know or care. I think this is in there for us so that we know exactly how long we will have to hold on and endure before it is over, so that we will have hope or possibly all of us would fall away in utter despair. Another good indicator is 1Thess 4:13-18, these are the verses that most people use to prove that a rapture will take place before the tribulation. But if that were true why does he finish in verse 18 with "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." If we are raptured why would we need to comfort each other? Now onto Revelations. In Rev 7:13-14 it talks about those who come out of the tribulation. Once again, if we the righteous are already raptured than who are those who come out of the tribulation? Rev 13:7-9 says that the antichrist "will be given unto him to make war with the saints." If the saints are already raptured how will he make war with us? Rev 13:15 talks about worshipping the image of the beast and those that don't will be killed. Well if all those who believe in Jesus have already been raptured than who are these that refuse to worship the image of the beast? Finally looking into the old testament for clues, we see in Zeph 2:3 that we need to seek the lord, his righteousness, and meekness so "that we will be hid in the day of the Lord's anger." Finally, in Prov 10:30 it states that the righteous shall never be removed but the wicked will. No, though I wish there would be a rapture especially with the tribulation fast approaching and I am almost certain even at my age I will still be alive on earth, baring an untimely death, I can only conclude that there will be no rapture and we best prepare ourselves, mentally and spiritually for what is to come or we might find ourselves one of the ones who end up falling away instead of enduring to the end.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that we as Christians and as the church will not escape the tribulation.

That's one position. Corrie Ten Boom held that one. But there are others as noted with many good Christian theologians teaching that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. I don't know the manufacture and model of your particular crystal ball but the Bible doesn't exactly say when it will occur. I thought we made that clear.

jeffreytonkovich wrote:I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that we as Christians and as the church will not escape the tribulation.

All through church history there have been Christians who have suffered greatly and died for their faith, and that continues to this very day. But from what I've read, the post-tribulation rapture position is the least supported. I'm not going to argue about it, since we just don't know for sure when it will happen. When the epistles were written, however, the church believed it was imminent and that they should watch for it. We should too.

Alan McDougall wrote:Hi When Jesus accepted me as his new child I was taught that we are all going to be snatched away in the rapture of the saints. Since then I have thought a lot about this idea and it poses enormous problems for both man and GOD

Guys guide me through this please I need your help

There are many end-times positions Alan. I myself subscribe to Amillenialism which I believes makes good sense. You'll have to decide yourself which makes the most sense to you.

My background is Premillenial and PreTrib. The denomination I ministered in for many years required a Premillenial view because they tied their focus on missions into the belief that world missions and completing the great commission was what would precede the return of Christ. The denomination did not require a pretrib position but it tended to fall in line in that direction.

I still tend to lean toward Premill, but I'm not as dogmatic about it. Amill makes sense to me in other contexts. When I entered ministry and had to declare an espoused position, post-trib makes more sense to me. I'd prefer to believe that believers would not go through tribulation but I don't find scriptural evidence for that. I also believed though that the wrath of God was reserved for everything outside of Christ and his Kingdom and so I espoused a position of posttrib - pre-wrath. The difficulty in that position was explaining how the return of Chris could be both imminent and unexpected but it was an acceptable posiiton.

Canuckster1127 wrote:My background is Premillenial and PreTrib. The denomination I ministered in for many years required a Premillenial view because they tied their focus on missions into the belief that world missions and completing the great commission was what would precede the return of Christ. The denomination did not require a pretrib position but it tended to fall in line in that direction.

I still tend to lean toward Premill, but I'm not as dogmatic about it. Amill makes sense to me in other contexts. When I entered ministry and had to declare an espoused position, post-trib makes more sense to me. I'd prefer to believe that believers would not go through tribulation but I don't find scriptural evidence for that. I also believed though that the wrath of God was reserved for everything outside of Christ and his Kingdom and so I espoused a position of posttrib - pre-wrath. The difficulty in that position was explaining how the return of Chris could be both imminent and unexpected but it was an acceptable posiiton.

Canuckster, I agree. Many Christians I have spoken with want to believe that believers will not go through tribulation. Just look at the popularity in the Church of those Left Behind movies. I think we as Americans live in our own little bubble. We don't realize how much tribulation the Church has seen in other parts of the world at different times in the past.

I believe in the rapture.

1st Thess. 4:13
For I would not have you to be ignorant breathern concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others who have no hope. For if you believe that Jesus died and rose again, them which also sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this I say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall decend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord, Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.