Evidence for God from Science

1) when they started following Jesus physically
2) when they believed he was the Messiah
3) when he died
4) when he told them to receive the Spirit after he was resurrected (John 20:21-23)
5) Pentecost
6) other?

(2)

TallMan wrote:1) when they started following Jesus physically
2) when they believed he was the Messiah
3) when he died
4) when he told them to receive the Spirit after he was resurrected (John 20:21-23)
5) Pentecost
6) other?

Jac is right in a sense, but I'd have to plump for (4) as this was when they truly accepted their goal.

TallMan wrote:1) when they started following Jesus physically
2) when they believed he was the Messiah
3) when he died
4) when he told them to receive the Spirit after he was resurrected (John 20:21-23)
5) Pentecost
6) other?

The disciples themselves probably wouldn't recognize the term or the context. It's an emphasis that arose in American evangelicalism in the late 1800s to early 1900s and became a theological term embedded within our particular culture. I suspect the disciples, being Hebrews from the time of Christ would not think as stongly in the sense of instantaneous static changes of moving from "lostness" to "salvation" based upon a pivotal moment.

These type of questions are rooted more, I think, in our looking back upon the scriptures and times of Christ in an effort to systematize and bring our western world view and align the material and progression of thought. That's not necessarily a bad thing, unless we move a step further and fail to recognize that we are doing it and so allow that interpretive approach to be assumed to be inherently present in the text. If God had intended for us to primarily use a systemized approach and socratic dialogue to discern truth, I think it is safe to suggest that He could have engineered his revelation to fit that mold, and yet He didn't.

So, that said, I think you could argue that God takes people one by one and it might even be an assumed fallacy to think that every disciple followed the same time table and schedule in terms of their understanding, faith and acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God. They might have been similar but they could very well be different. We humanly grasp upon outward signs and assumed systems of progression, particularly in the western world. The Hebraic world view of the men in question, would likely be puzzled at the question as their world view would be more wholistic and less geared to the assumption that the question carries.

How's that for skirting the question?

Nevertheless, it is clear from reading what they wrote as well as Christ that salvation was not hereditary, a result of being Hebrew, nor was it obtained through osmosis but rather the result of a very real decision to accept Jesus as Messiah.

ageofknowledge wrote:Nevertheless, it is clear from reading what they wrote as well as Christ that salvation was not hereditary, a result of being Hebrew, nor was it obtained through osmosis but rather the result of a very real decision to accept Jesus as Messiah.

I never suggested anything hereditary as a result of being Hebrew. I simply noted that the original writers under inspiration and the original audience would have found the question asked as somewhat foreign to what they were thinking. If the original writers, even under verbal plenary understanding of passages of scripture (which hadn't been cannonized formally at the time) would not envision and understand the process in a manner that the original question in this thread assumes, then doesn't it beg the question as to whether we're introducing some elements not originally present?

That said, I tend to agree that it was understood that a real decision to see Jesus as the Son of God (which included the idea of the Messiah) was a clear message although, I'm not sure they would have attempted to isolate it to a point and time to the degree we in the west tend to understand some of these passages.

TallMan wrote:1) when they started following Jesus physically
2) when they believed he was the Messiah
3) when he died
4) when he told them to receive the Spirit after he was resurrected (John 20:21-23)
5) Pentecost
6) other?

Hmmm - I would say --- well --- Ephesians 1:4, 5

and toss in Romans 8:29, 30 as well...
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Agree with 2, although considering the OPer this is meant to bring on debate....

Consider this: The disciples went from being a scared, cowardly, defeated band of peasants before Jesus' resurrection to a transformed, bold and confident band of Men after the resurrection. This tranformation signalled the beginning in the spreading of the good news. *This* is where they truly became "born again."

Danny, I would say that is when they became equipped through the saturating filling of the HS. Jesus had already taught them and prepared them for this event in John 14-16.

We have to understand the context that BA was used by Christ. It is not something he threw around repeatedly. In fact it is only used three times that I know of in the scriptures. Twice in John 3 and once in 1 Peter. He used it to Nicodemus to convey to him that eternal life was not being a good Jew. This is really no different than whay JTB and Jesus were preaching. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand. A Jew would have to repent, and forsake the way of the Law as a means to righteousness.

jlay wrote:Danny, I would say that is when they became equipped through the saturating filling of the HS. Jesus had already taught them and prepared them for this event in John 14-16.

We have to understand the context that BA was used by Christ. It is not something he threw around repeatedly. In fact it is only used three times that I know of in the scriptures. Twice in John 3 and once in 1 Peter. He used it to Nicodemus to convey to him that eternal life was not being a good Jew. This is really no different than whay JTB and Jesus were preaching. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand. A Jew would have to repent, and forsake the way of the Law as a means to righteousness.

Jlay, Jesus tells the disciples in John 14:18-20 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long the world will not see me any more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realise that I am in my father, and you are in me, and I am in you." Jesus tells them that on his return they will "realise".

In Mark 16:14 Jesus, on his return after resurrection, rebukes the disciples as they still don't appear to undertstand the magnitude of what is going on.

Admittedly in John 16:29-32 the disciples do begin to (belatedly) understand that Jesus is from God, but Jesus still knows that they will be scattered and scared. His re-appearence is crucial to ramming home who Jesus really is and the magnitude of these events.

Dan

Danny,

I understand those scriptures. But how are you attaching 'born again,' to this? Just because the disciples scattered doesn't mean they weren't born again. Have you demonstrated unwavering faith at all times? Have you heard a mighty rushing wind, or had cloven tongues of fire appear over your head?

In John 14 Jesus is training them as disciples. Preparing them as THE disciples who will give birth to THE CHURCH. I certainly didn't understand the magnitude of everything when I trusted in Christ.

"Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe."

jlay wrote:Danny,

I understand those scriptures. But how are you attaching 'born again,' to this? Just because the disciples scattered doesn't mean they weren't born again. Have you demonstrated unwavering faith at all times? Have you heard a mighty rushing wind, or had cloven tongues of fire appear over your head?

In John 14 Jesus is training them as disciples. Preparing them as THE disciples who will give birth to THE CHURCH. I certainly didn't understand the magnitude of everything when I trusted in Christ.

"Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe."

Jlay,

I'm saying that the disciples did not truly believe in the glory of Christ Jesus until he re-appeared to them. Jesus had to make a re-appearance in order for the disciples to truly understand who Jesus really is.

The disciples didn't have the advantage of historical scripture and testimony to refer to. They were around in an age of confusion, desperation, apocalyptic hyperbole. They believed Jesus. They *wanted* to believe in Jesus. But Jesus knew that he would need to re-appear to fully shore up their faith. This is when they attained true knowledge; not by reading the evidence from historical sources like we do — but by witnessing Christ's return for themselves; how unique and wonderful is that by the way! Only here did the disciples become truly “born again.” Only here, “on that day,” did they “realise.” You can not be “born again” in a half-hearted” fashion.

Peace

I would expect God to be clear on a subject as vital as this!

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see (perceive, understand) the kingdom of God
. . . he cannot enter into (be a part of) the kingdom of God" (John 3:3, 5)

A person either has or has not been born again of God's Spirit:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Peter, one of the disciples, in a sense a leader of them, wrote to the church:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)

So, that rules out (1), (2) and (3).

At (4) Jesus was resurrected but not yet ascended:
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17, see also 15:26)

This is important because we are told:
"the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:39)

Jesus was glorified by being received into heaven:
"glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5)

Also:
"when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth" (John 15:26)


At Pentecost (5) the Spirit was sent from heaven ("born again" means born from above), it was later referred to as "the beginning" (Acts 11:15) and the immediate speaking in tongues by all, including later people matches what Jesus detailed in John 3:8, 12:

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit . . If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

- Just like people take the cry as the first sign of life when a baby is born, so the apostles took speaking in tonguyes as God's sign of receiving (being born of) His Spirit.

"This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him. " John 2:11

"Whoever believes in Me has everlasting life." John 6:47

The Bible says the disciples believed in Christ in John 2 before the death, resurrection, etc. Jesus says everyone who believes has everlasting life. Thus, the disciples had everlasting life in John 2. If your gospel contradicts Jesus, you should reconsider your gospel, lest you fall under the condemnation of God as stated in Gal 1:8-9.