Evidence for God from Science

An evangelical missionary from Africa came to our church and stated that, as Christians, we had a "chance" to enter into heaven.

Hmm... comments?

Given my current understanding of the truth, it seems the man shares the general misconception that any human being has access to heaven, now or after death.

The impression I was getting from this missionary lady was that as Christians we had a chance to enter heaven but it wasn't ensured.

I know we've discussed this at length but I'm just trying to get my mind around why this very spiritual lady who gave up everything to follow Christ to Africa and work to build a successful Christian community there would say this in that way.

It's depressing, but it would be good to know more of what she meant.

cslewislover wrote: It's depressing, but it would be good to know more of what she meant.

Why is it depressing? Salvation is offered to all (all have a chance at it) but few accept it. I see nothing wrong with what she said.

Byblos wrote:

cslewislover wrote: It's depressing, but it would be good to know more of what she meant.

Why is it depressing? Salvation is offered to all (all have a chance at it) but few accept it. I see nothing wrong with what she said.

I agree Byblos. It seems to me as though she is saying, although you are a professed Christian, if you do not adhere to the fundamentals of Christianity then you are indeed in trouble.

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:

cslewislover wrote: It's depressing, but it would be good to know more of what she meant.

Why is it depressing? Salvation is offered to all (all have a chance at it) but few accept it. I see nothing wrong with what she said.

I agree Byblos. It seems to me as though she is saying, although you are a professed Christian, if you do not adhere to the fundamentals of Christianity then you are indeed in trouble.

And remember she is a missionary whose common role is to spread the Gospel to non-believers. Telling them they have a chance at salvation perfectly aligns with her mission and with scripture.

Byblos wrote:

cslewislover wrote: It's depressing, but it would be good to know more of what she meant.

Why is it depressing? Salvation is offered to all (all have a chance at it) but few accept it. I see nothing wrong with what she said.

Well, from Age writing it - I know that he knows that once we believe in Christ we are accepted, it isn't a chance thing (you know, "assurance of salvation"). I totally took that as his meaning, after he responded as well. Once we accept Christ as our Savior, is it a chance thing then? No. And I know you don't believe that either (unless you've changed your theology suddenly). From what I understand, Age is concerned that this lady says we still might not get into heaven even if we believe Christ is our Savior - since it's a chance thing. It sounds very Islamic. Christianity differs vastly from Islam that way, and it would seem like a point of emphasis, in fact, in countries where Islam is present (which it is in much of Africa). So I'm surprised at your response, lol.

The more I reflect on it the more I think Byblos might be right in that is what she meant. She is surrounded by non-believers building a believing community. She's probably said that many many times to the people she ministers too in those non-believing communities. I think we've solved the riddle. That has to be what happened. I took it differently since she said it (probaby for the upteenth hundredth time) in a place of many believers. Good looking out Byblos.

ageofknowledge wrote:The more I reflect on it the more I think Byblos might be right in that is what she meant. She is surrounded by non-believers building a believing community. She's probably said that many many times to the people she ministers too in those non-believing communities. I think we've solved the riddle. That has to be what happened. I took it differently since she said it (probaby for the upteenth hundredth time) in a place of many believers. Good looking out Byblos.

Ok. But I still think I made a good point at the end of my post, which I had added while you wrote. This is a significant issue in Muslim areas (and if you wanted to get into it, it goes against predestination as well, but, lol . . . not getting into that right now).

Yes cslewis I did take it that way and Muslims certainly have to grapple with the lack of satisfactory assurance of salvation in their belief system. I would add that following a false prophet who deceived his followers about the divinity of Christ would naturally bring about that uncertainty. I find Byblos response satisfactory however. I believe the riddle is solved to what I witnessed.

cslewislover wrote:Well, from Age writing it - I know that he knows that once we believe in Christ we are accepted, it isn't a chance thing (you know, "assurance of salvation"). I totally took that as his meaning, after he responded as well. Once we accept Christ as our Savior, is it a chance thing then? No. And I know you don't believe that either (unless you've changed your theology suddenly). From what I understand, Age is concerned that this lady says we still might not get into heaven even if we believe Christ is our Savior - since it's a chance thing. It sounds very Islamic. Christianity differs vastly from Islam that way, and it would seem like a point of emphasis, in fact, in countries where Islam is present (which it is in much of Africa). So I'm surprised at your response, lol.

I think you took it much the same way Age did at first, I didn't nor do I believe salvation is "a chance thing" (I hope as much is clear about me). But that's not what the missionary meant anyway. This lady made it her life mission to talk to non-believers and try to convince them they have a crack (chance) at salvation. Like age indicated, I believe she just repeated something she says countless times.

ageofknowledge wrote:The impression I was getting from this missionary lady was that as Christians we had a chance to enter heaven but it wasn't ensured.

I know we've discussed this at length but I'm just trying to get my mind around why this very spiritual lady who gave up everything to follow Christ to Africa and work to build a successful Christian community there would say this in that way.

Age, I know you've settled this in your mind, so forgive me if I pursue this. I just want to get your answer to a question. If you believe in the glory of Christ - his death, resurrection and coming, the whole lot, but you are a thief, a rapist and a no-good son of an immoral mother, then do you think you are saved in Christ?

Peace brother

DannyM wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:The impression I was getting from this missionary lady was that as Christians we had a chance to enter heaven but it wasn't ensured.

I know we've discussed this at length but I'm just trying to get my mind around why this very spiritual lady who gave up everything to follow Christ to Africa and work to build a successful Christian community there would say this in that way.

Age, I know you've settled this in your mind, so forgive me if I pursue this. I just want to get your answer to a question. If you believe in the glory of Christ - his death, resurrection and coming, the whole lot, but you are a thief, a rapist and a no-good son of an immoral mother, then do you think you are saved in Christ?

Peace brother

I've known murders, thieves, gangsters, etc... that did get saved at Victory Outreach and changed their way of life. It doesn't mean they didn't have personal struggles with sin issues. If you've been born again, your desires change. God replaces the heart of stone the devil built in you with a heart of flesh that has His law written on it. A conscience is born.

The problem I think comes when new believers are not discipled properly. It takes time to shed ingrained behaviors, addictions, responses, etc... and many simply don't realize they are in a spiritual war. A real one. So yes you can end up with a born again Christian who is still involved with old behaviors and associates that aren't going anywhere good fast. The difference is that now God is also involved in their life in important ways he wasn't before. Complicating the discussion is the Sower and the Seeds found in Matthew 13:1-23. Consider it.

Professing Christ and possessing Christ are two different things. If you really have been born of God and possess Christ, you may be an ignorant, struggling, backsliding, no good pot smoking porno watching drunken you know what at times but you'll have a God breathed desire to repent of it afterwards, have a Holy Spirit desire to defend Christ, and progress spiritually even if it's two steps forward one step back another step back three steps forward. Being properly discipled takes you from this place to where you need to be saving a new believer countless years of regret and learning the hardway, countless mistakes and offenses, and gains them a great deal of good. Unfortunately one on one and group discipleship isn't practiced much anymore in our churches. They throw the word around and come up with some Bible study courses and sermon series around it but that's as far as it goes.

Which is why I alway advocate new believers to go through a Celebrate Recovery or some other Christian 12 step program. Because its one of the few places they can find mentorship, accountability, and discipleship in the church in a real way even if they are addiction free. There is a lot more to these programs than seeing people end addiction. I hope that answers your question. Peace.