Evidence for God from Science

Folks,

I've decided to open a post on the Gospel in the stars (heavens) and how God spelled out our redemption using the constellations. Please be aware this is mostly a theory and is not ultimate truth. This is a controversial subject among Christians that is NOT endorsed by the godandscience website or by any of the other moderators here. Not all Christians embrace this view either, in fact, I would say it's only a small minority so we need to proceed with caution. Some of the bigger cats that I have found that do support it are Pat Robertson of CBN, Dr. James Kennedy, Paul Crouch of the TBN network, E.W. Bullinger, Chuck Missler, and Dr. Henry Morris to name a few.

First and foremost we have to tackle what the gospel in the stars is and isn't. In order to do that we need to understand what the Bible says about astrology.

First what exactly is astrology? Astrology for the most part "is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters. A practitioner of astrology is called an astrologer." -wikipedia. As example let's say my sign is Aries (the ram) and I look up my horoscope (using astrology) and find that on March 1st I should not go outside because I'm going to get hit by an ice cream truck. This is not what we are talking about when we are talking about the Bible signs. When we talk about the constellations (stars) in the Bible what we are talking about here is an outline of a story. A story or poetry of God's redemption written in the stars using constellations. Nothing more, nothing less. What happens with astrology is that it turns into a worship of oneself, a form of idolatry, whereas with Biblical astronomy it turns into a worship of God.

Beware, astrology is highly condemned in the Bible, 2 Kings 17:16-18, Isaiah 47:12-14, Deuteronomy 4:19, 18:9-14,18-22, Daniel 2:27-28, Acts 7:42-43. You could be killed for practicing it. Astrology for the most part is considered a perversion of God's word written in the stars.

So what exactly is the gospel in the stars? The Bible clearly states that the stars are for signs and to mark the seasons.

Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.

Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Daniel 6:27
He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens (sky) and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions.

Jeremiah 10:2
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens

As we can see from scripture it is God who calls the names of the stars and provides knowledge to them not man.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name.

Psalm 19:1-3
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Psalm 147:4
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Who is the maker of the constellations? God..

Job 9:9
He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion (constellations), the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.

Job 38:31-32
Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?

Isaiah 13:10
The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Here are a list of sources that we will be using for this study:

Books

1. E.W. Bullinger - The Witness of the stars
2. William D. Banks - The Heavens Declare
3. Frances Rolleston - Mazzaroth (pioneer of this subject)
4. Joseph A. Seiss - The Gospel in the stars
5. Dr. James Kennedy - The real Meaning of the Zodiac
6. Kenneth Fleming - God's Voice in the Stars
7. Rick Larson - The Star of Bethlehem
8. Barry Setterfield - The Christmas Star
9. Ernest L. Martin - The Star That Astonished The World
10. Chuck Missler - Signs in the Heavens
11. John Mosley - The Christmas Star
12. Bob Wadsworth - Biblical Astronomy

Links

1. The Bethlehem Star
2. What was the star of Bethlehem?
3. Was the Star a Real star?

YouTube Videos

1. Rick Larson series (same producer as "The Passion of the Christ")
The Star of Bethlehem Part 1
The Star of Bethlehem Part 2
The Star of Bethlehem Part 3
The Star of Bethlehem Part 4
The Star of Bethlehem Part 5
The Star of Bethlehem Part 6

2. Chuck Missler series
Signs in the Heavens Part 1
Signs in the Heavens Part 2

Let's be clear here... First if we don't believe that God could use constellations for a message or sign in the sky, then does God use signs at all? Of course God uses signs and we have scripture that proves that. In fact it seems that if God isn't going to use the constellations, then He is going to use signs on something else - Exodus 4:8,30, 7:3, 13:9, Deuteronomy 6:22, 2 Kings 20:9. Job 37:14-17. Matt 12:38.

God, it seems, also talks in parables (stories) - Mark 4:2, 30-31.

Before we get into this I think it is good that we understand the basics of astronomy and how the constellations work in the sky. It should be noted that there are 48 different ancient constellations in the sky. We often think of 12 constellations in the heavens but there are actually 48 ancient ones (and more added later). Why is there such an emphasis then on the 12 constellation and not the others? Basically it's because of the 12 constellations that run along the ecliptic or the apparent path that the Sun traces out in the sky during the year shown below. This also gives us our 12 months.



Each constellation essentially "dominates" it's portion of the year or month as it runs along the ecliptic. What does it mean to dominate? It means that every constellation will be in it's highest spot on the horizon (looking south) as it runs along the ecliptic during the year. Basically when a constellation reaches it's highest point along the horizon, it is known to "dominate" that month or time.

Example of Sagittarius dominating the months 22 November through 22 December.

Hi Gman,

I've enjoyed Rick Larson's videos and explanations. Thanks for the links. This is astronomy, astrology if we look at it another way, but, anyhow, all astronomers of modern science uses the same pictograms to locate stars. One can only read the fantastic books of Stephen Hawking to realize it.

I also watched the Miller's videos and they may be powdered with a bit of mis-information...

If we look at the constellations of the 12 months, we have to keep in mind that before the Roman Empire, there was 10 months in the calendar. From January up to december, 1 to ten. Sept-ember was the 7th month, October 8th and de-cember 10th. And just for the 1rst sake of it, Quintilis became July (Julius) in honor of Julius Caesar and Sextilis (Sex=6) became August in honor of Augustus also a Caesar.

Strangely and for the 2nd sake of it, most of the Roman Caesars had the title of Pontifus Maximus witch is a title of modern Roman Catholic Popes .

..very anxious to read you more.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

Zeb

Zebulon wrote:Hi Gman,

I've enjoyed Rick Larson's videos and explanations. Thanks for the links. This is astronomy, astrology if we look at it another way, but, anyhow, all astronomers of modern science uses the same pictograms to locate stars. One can only read the fantastic books of Stephen Hawking to realize it.

I also watched the Miller's videos and they may be powdered with a bit of mis-information...

Hi Zeb, I think you mean Missler? I take Missler with a grain of salt. I believe he capitalizes on some truth then flounders on others. I like some of the basic layouts he gives in these videos however.

Zebulon wrote:If we look at the constellations of the 12 months, we have to keep in mind that before the Roman Empire, there was 10 months in the calendar. From January up to december, 1 to ten. Sept-ember was the 7th month, October 8th and de-cember 10th. And just for the 1rst sake of it, Quintilis became July (Julius) in honor of Julius Caesar and Sextilis (Sex=6) became August in honor of Augustus also a Caesar.

Strangely and for the 2nd sake of it, most of the Roman Caesars had the title of Pontifus Maximus witch is a title of modern Roman Catholic Popes .

Thanks for that tid bit. It's true that many cultures have a different take on the calendar. The Egyptian calendar is another interesting calendar that goes back to at least 5500 BC. That one is called the zodiac of Dendereh which was found on the ceiling of the portico of the temple of Esneh in Egypt. It is also based on a 12 month system. Of course it is debated that the Jews stole the Egyptian calendar to make it their own, however, there is contrary evidence for that. For one the Egyptian religion did not carry out the meanings of these star names in their star temple rituals as the Hebrews did. There is a good article on this here. We can get into that later perhaps..

Zebulon wrote:..very anxious to read you more.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

Zeb

Well thanks... We will see where this goes.

Gman,

Gman wrote:Hi Zeb, I think you mean Missler?

Yes indead, sorry

Gman wrote:Well thanks... We will see where this goes.

I did'nt find a smily with binoculars...

From your first post in this tread:

Gman wrote:I've decided to open a post on the Gospel in the stars (heavens) and how God spelled out our redemption using the constellations. Please be aware this is mostly a theory and is not ultimate truth. This is a controversial subject among Christians that is NOT endorsed by the godandscience website or by any of the other moderators here. Not all Christians embrace this view either, in fact, I would say it's only a small minority so we need to proceed with caution.

Indead. I will bring questions that might get some christians unhappy towards their faith, but I promise to try to be carefull not to offend anyone. I made a lot of research since the last time I participated in this Forum. That's for this.

Gman, you kindly answered Cslewislover in the other tread:

Gman wrote:Example the position of the tribe Judah or lion in the east where the messiah's star would arise Matthew 2:2. Jesus was also of the tribe of Judah, etc..

I don't want to start a debate on the Jewishness of Jesus since possibly miriads of Christians will deliberately bring me tons of quotes from the Bible proving the fact. Nevertheless the occurence of the conjonction of Jupiter and Venus was an event that all calendars in the World, Chinese, Mayan, Hebrew, Egyptian and elses where confirmed about... since calendars are mathematical tools to calculate time. My question is: If Jesus was from the tribe of Judah then his father had to be from the tribe of Judah? Or is it more decent to say that Christ is the son of God, Immanuel (God with us)... from heaven as seen from the conjunction?

Zebulon

For anyone who would like to have a bit more knowledge of how our Universe look like and works, you can download the amazing Celestia software for FREE:
http://www.shatters.net/celestia/

An additionnal add-on explain how conjunctions works... http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catal ... on_id=1333

Zebulon

Gman,

You stopped bringing interresting stuff. Is it because I am the only one interrested in the topic?

Therefore if you have a clue,
Solstice of June 21st 1982 During the 666 [Saros] Solar Eclipse

Did it occured and at what time? I know with the Ecclesia software that a Earth-Moon eclipse occured...

Kindly and thanks,

Zebulon

In the late 1800’s two books were written, The Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger's, and The Gospel in the Stars by Joseph A. Seiss's. Current proponents claim that God's whole plan of redemption can be found in the Zodiac and that the history of mankind and Christ can be understood from the constellations. Most of those who promote this idea admit that the gospel can't be seen in the stars themselves, but that it comes from a "Christianized" interpretation of the signs of the Zodiac, which were assigned by the ancient peoples to apparent groups of stars, called constellations. These figures are not seen in the natural formations of the stars, but are the result only of human imagination. In no way could the stars provide a sign that the Son of God would come to earth and die in our place to offer forgiveness of sin as a free gift of God's grace. It would be impossible for an uninformed person to determine the "gospel" from the stars.

tomsenske wrote:In the late 1800’s two books were written, The Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger's, and The Gospel in the Stars by Joseph A. Seiss's. Current proponents claim that God's whole plan of redemption can be found in the Zodiac and that the history of mankind and Christ can be understood from the constellations. Most of those who promote this idea admit that the gospel can't be seen in the stars themselves, but that it comes from a "Christianized" interpretation of the signs of the Zodiac, which were assigned by the ancient peoples to apparent groups of stars, called constellations. These figures are not seen in the natural formations of the stars, but are the result only of human imagination. In no way could the stars provide a sign that the Son of God would come to earth and die in our place to offer forgiveness of sin as a free gift of God's grace. It would be impossible for an uninformed person to determine the "gospel" from the stars.

Well that isn't true at all.. The meaning or story of the constellations actually goes way back to the time of Adam and Seth in Genesis. Bullinger, Seiss, and Rolleston simply magnified the teachings, but they are actually derived from the Bible and the Talmuds and more recently the Dead Sea Scrolls, 4Qcryptic and 4Q186.

The point here about the constellations is that they tell a story. That God would write His redemption in the stars.. Poetry at it's finest.. God loves stories, and they are written throughout His word..

Hi guys, sorry I haven't visited for a while.

I've been researching Larson's 'star' for the last few weeks and I've started to feel uneasy the last few days. I emailed John Mosley to verify the 'astronomy' and that all seems correct- BUT Larson's star cannot work unless the Zodiac is involved ie 'the gospel in the stars' theory. I've been checking out articles regarding Rick Larson and these two articles were interesting:

http://creation.com/bethlehem-star

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... hlehem-dvd

I also found this interesting article about the 'gospel in the stars' theory:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... l-in-stars

It makes this very salient point:

''But there is a far more serious objection to the gospel in the stars: it contradicts biblical texts. The New Testament calls the gospel a “mystery” (1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 6:19, 3:8–12; Colossians 4:3). In the New Testament, a mystery is something that was previously unknown but now is revealed to us. Romans 16:25–26 states that this mystery was hidden for long ages and was revealed through prophetic writings (that is, in the Old Testament, not in the stars). 1 Corinthians 2:8 further tells us that, if the princes of this world had known of this mystery, “they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” 1 Peter 1:10–12 suggests that, while the prophets “searched diligently,” they failed to grasp fully the gospel before its time.''

''But there is a far more serious objection to the gospel in the stars: it contradicts biblical texts. The New Testament calls the gospel a “mystery” (1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 6:19, 3:8–12; Colossians 4:3). In the New Testament, a mystery is something that was previously unknown but now is revealed to us. Romans 16:25–26 states that this mystery was hidden for long ages and was revealed through prophetic writings (that is, in the Old Testament, not in the stars). 1 Corinthians 2:8 further tells us that, if the princes of this world had known of this mystery, “they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” 1 Peter 1:10–12 suggests that, while the prophets “searched diligently,” they failed to grasp fully the gospel before its time.''

Actually no. AIG makes a grave error. It makes a faulty assumption about what Paul is communicating by the 'mystery.'

The NT writers are clear that there is a gospel of the Kingdom. This was foretold by the prophets. It was known. We would have to ignore the entire account of the wise men if this were the case. They saw HIS star. They knew what to look for. This would create all kinds of bigger problems for them to deal with. JOhn the Baptist was an OT prophet. The last and greatest according to Jesus. He preached the gospel of the Kingdom as it was prophesied. Jerimiah prophesied of the new covenant. The NT even says that Abraham heard the 'gospel.' Gospel simply means good news.

The mystery mentioned in Paul's letters refers to His gospel, (He even claims, 'my gospel.) which was kept secret since the foundation of the world. Paul's Gospel was secret because it was only revealed after Israel had rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom.
This is a failure to rightly divide the Word of truth on their part. One we can all make.

You incorrectly interpret Romans 16. The text says it was kept secret, but NOW is made manifest. But you then say (or they say) it was revealed through the prophetic writings. That is a contardiction. The text of Romans 16 must not mean that when it says, "and by the scriptures of the prophets," or it would be a contradiciton. If it was revealed then it wasn't secret. According to Paul in Ephesians 3, he received this gospel by direct revelation from Christ, not from the scriptures.

Let me emphasize that my comments are NOT a defense of Larson, but just a critique of how AIG uses these verses.

Have you guys read "Eternity in their hearts" by Don Richardson?


From the reviews:
Richardson shows that God has revealed himself to "all his children" by planting a root for the Gospel within each culture, so when we call people to Christ, we call them to the deepest truths within their own cultures. I remember the first time I visited the Temple of Heaven in Beijing, China, 16 years ago. Who was this "Heaven" whom the Chinese worshiped? Why did the emperor come once a year, just like the high priest in Israel, to sacrifice for the sins of the people? As I stood in the most sacred spot in China, it seemed as if a Voice spoke to my heart. "Do you think I just came to China with the missionaries? No. I have been here all along. I made China."

jlay, you make some good points which I shall ponder. I have been continually praying about all this but I still feel this 'uneasiness'. As long as it continues, I will leave 'stars' etc well alone. From my own understanding, which may well be dodgy, it seems that the 'gospel' or the knowledge of God's Plan in reconciling the universe back to Himself, has been gradually revealed to the prophets and the people through the various ages, and has only been partly known or appreciated. I understood the 'mystery' to mean Jesus (ie God in the flesh). Everything about Jesus, was foretold in the OT but not fully understood (e.g He will bruise you in the head, and you will bruise Him in the heel). Everything we need to know about Jesus and the gospel, is in the Bible. (Paul doesn't mention constellations foretelling or heralding 'events'.)

You make a good point about the Magi knowing the 'star' was the sign of the newly born King of the Jews. This strongly implies that significances placed on stars have some credence.

I'm really confused.

catherine wrote:jlay, you make some good points which I shall ponder. I have been continually praying about all this but I still feel this 'uneasiness'. As long as it continues, I will leave 'stars' etc well alone. From my own understanding, which may well be dodgy, it seems that the 'gospel' or the knowledge of God's Plan in reconciling the universe back to Himself, has been gradually revealed to the prophets and the people through the various ages, and has only been partly known or appreciated. I understood the 'mystery' to mean Jesus (ie God in the flesh). Everything about Jesus, was foretold in the OT but not fully understood (e.g He will bruise you in the head, and you will bruise Him in the heel). Everything we need to know about Jesus and the gospel, is in the Bible. (Paul doesn't mention constellations foretelling or heralding 'events'.)

You make a good point about the Magi knowing the 'star' was the sign of the newly born King of the Jews. This strongly implies that significances placed on stars have some credence.

I'm really confused.

Sorry for not seeing this response.. There is really no reason to be confused here about the Gospels in the star theory. All you need to understand about it is G-d simply using the star as a canvas for His story of redemption. A poetry lesson using stars. We see that in nature ALL THE TIME anyways. As an example the life and death of a flower... The life and death of Yeshau (Christ). Written on nature.. Look at the Bible, tons and tons of allegory. Take Matthew 23:37 for instance. Christ calls Himself a mother hen? Good grief...


Matthew 23:37

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

That's about it... It's just a story. Take it or leave it..