Evidence for God from Science

Genesis 17:

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day. 27 And every male in Abraham's household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Do these verses mean that all Gentiles should be circumcised?

Thanks.

Most certainly no.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19
Galatians 6:12
Romans 2: 28-29

jlay wrote:Most certainly no.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19

Shouldn't it read, "but what matters is the keeping of certain commandments of God." ?
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jlay wrote:Most certainly no.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19
Galatians 6:12
Romans 2: 28-29

Can you cite something from the Old Testament to back up the New Testament and Paul?

Thanks.

BavarianWheels wrote:

jlay wrote:Most certainly no.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19

Shouldn't it read, "but what matters is the keeping of certain commandments of God." ?
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I Jew I know said that Gentiles had a choice. Perhaps it is a difference between what is a Covenant and what is the law?

Christian2 wrote:I Jew I know said that Gentiles had a choice. Perhaps it is a difference between what is a Covenant and what is the law?

You mean historically, or according to the OT, gentiles had the choice upon conversion? That actually doesn't sound right (I was thinking of the verses you had provided) . . . but why are you asking? You saw the verses jlay gave, and you can read them in context. It is not necessary for Christians to become circumcised. Or, is this not what you are concerned with?

Christian2 wrote:

jlay wrote:Most certainly no.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19
Galatians 6:12
Romans 2: 28-29

Can you cite something from the Old Testament to back up the New Testament and Paul?

Thanks.

Hi from the OT we have Deuteronomy 10:16, Ezekiel 18:31 then too...

Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 32:39, 40 Ezekiel 36:26, 27, Ezekiel 11:19, 20

From Paul - Romans 2:29 and Col 2:11, 12

Hope this helps
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cslewislover wrote:

Christian2 wrote:I Jew I know said that Gentiles had a choice. Perhaps it is a difference between what is a Covenant and what is the law?

You mean historically, or according to the OT, gentiles had the choice upon conversion? That actually doesn't sound right (I was thinking of the verses you had provided) . . . but why are you asking? You saw the verses jlay gave, and you can read them in context. It is not necessary for Christians to become circumcised. Or, is this not what you are concerned with?

LOL and it doesn't feel good either!!! LOL no it doesn't feel good at all!!!!!! I just thought I would add that to this thread!!!

When I asked the question on another forum: "Do Gentiles have to be circumcised according to Genesis 17," this is the answer I received:

In a word, no.

Circumcision was only mandated for Abraham and his descendants, and any slaves he might own. Gentiles only need to be circumcised if they choose to enter the Covenant of Abraham by converting to Judaism.

Being circumcised does not necessarily mean one is under the Covenant; most American men are circumcised. I was circumcised at birth and did not become a Jew till I was fifty - and then I had to have a "drop-of-blood circumcision," where a single drop of blood - more like a speck, actually - is drawn with the appropriate blessing from the mohel.

The circumcision must be done specifically to confirm the covenant; if it isn't, it has no significance. Jumping into a swimming pool isn't the same as Christian baptism, either.

Either way you want to look at it, the answer is no. The scripture you quoted relates to the original covenant and formation of the nation of Israel through the blood line of Issac. Circumcision would be a mark of sepreration FROM the Gentiles.

So unless you have been bought by an Israelite I wouldn't worry about it.

The new testament verses demonstrate that physical circumcision is NOT for those branches (gentiles) which are grafted in to the tree. (Israel)

The verses here also demonstrate that although Ishmael was not the direct line through which God would use, that God would have a plan for all mankind. So, what happened physically with Ishmael and his kin, foreshadows what would happen spiritually for all gentile believers through Christ. The covenant was an everlasting covenant, and is fulfilled in Christ. I know it is wierd to think about, but surely Christ was physically circumcised. He fulfilled all of the Law.

jlay wrote:Either way you want to look at it, the answer is no. The scripture you quoted relates to the original covenant and formation of the nation of Israel through the blood line of Issac. Circumcision would be a mark of sepreration FROM the Gentiles.

So unless you have been bought by an Israelite I wouldn't worry about it.

The new testament verses demonstrate that physical circumcision is NOT for those branches (gentiles) which are grafted in to the tree. (Israel)

The verses here also demonstrate that although Ishmael was not the direct line through which God would use, that God would have a plan for all mankind. So, what happened physically with Ishmael and his kin, foreshadows what would happen spiritually for all gentile believers through Christ. The covenant was an everlasting covenant, and is fulfilled in Christ. I know it is wierd to think about, but surely Christ was physically circumcised. He fulfilled all of the Law.

Thank you.