Evidence for God from Science

Brothers and Sisters,

I understand what John 1:1 says that the word became flesh. This makes sense to me; I can even understand that the creator of the earth and time and space can be in multiple places at the same time. I can also see that God the father, the creator of all things became a man and lived among humanity and in multiple places at the same time. What I do not understand is when Jesus refers to the father as a third person in many of scriptures. For example John 3:16 says that God sent his only begotten son, but if Jesus and God are the same being what son is there to send?

I'm not trying to create a debate here, but I am a little confused. My heart tells me that God became flesh in the person of Jesus, but when the Bible has Jesus referring to God as a third person, it kind of contradicts my belief.

Regards,

John...

The Son and the Father are the same Being; they are different Persons. A person is not the same thing as a being; a being is not the same thing as a person. There is nothing logically inconsistent about positing a being in which we find multiple persons. The Son is one person. The Father another. The Holy Spirit still another.

Edit: Evidence for this is found in John itself. Jesus many times refers to His Father, and yet John 1:1 does not say that the Word was the Father. It says the Word was God. God is the being. The Father and Son (aka the Word) are the Persons. Notice 1:18 distinguishes the Father from the Son. John is very consistent and careful in his wording.

teixidoj wrote:Brothers and Sisters,

I understand what John 1:1 says that the word became flesh. This makes sense to me; I can even understand that the creator of the earth and time and space can be in multiple places at the same time. I can also see that God the father, the creator of all things became a man and lived among humanity and in multiple places at the same time. What I do not understand is when Jesus refers to the father as a third person in many of scriptures. For example John 3:16 says that God sent his only begotten son, but if Jesus and God are the same being what son is there to send?

I'm not trying to create a debate here, but I am a little confused. My heart tells me that God became flesh in the person of Jesus, but when the Bible has Jesus referring to God as a third person, it kind of contradicts my belief.

Regards,

John...

John,

There is no logical inconsistency here. The doctrine of the incarnation tells us precisely that Jesus was and is a human person; it also tells us that this same identical person was and is divine. The adjectives "divine" and "human" express *what* Jesus is (i.e. his nature); the name "Jesus" refers to *who* (which person) he is. In virtue of his human nature certain things can be asserted or denied about Jesus; in virtue of his divine nature certain things can be asserted or denied of him, but all these assertions are about one person. It is thus logical to say that "God died on the cross" or "God suffered abuse and torture," but it is not, however, true to say that "Jesus, *qua* God, dies on the cross" for here "God" belongs to the predicative part of the proposition and has the role of signifying a nature. The bible is clear in that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, and there is no logical inconsistency here at all.

Hope this helps...

With thanks to the late, great theologian, Herbert McCabe...God rest his soul.

Look closely at Phillipians 2:5-11. That lays the foundation for much of the understanding of these issues.

As I read the scripture in chapter 11, it talks about two different beings, Jesus and God the father.

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

I also remember reading in the gospels, when Jesus was talking about the last days and his disciples asked him when will the end come. Jesus answered, nor I or the angels of heaven know, but only God the father knows (something like that). I also asked the question on why John 3:16 talks about God sending his only begotten son, what son when John 1:1 talks about the word becoming flesh?

teixidoj wrote:As I read the scripture in chapter 11, it talks about two different beings, Jesus and God the father.

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

I also remember reading in the gospels, when Jesus was talking about the last days and his disciples asked him when will the end come. Jesus answered, nor I or the angels of heaven know, but only God the father knows (something like that). I also asked the question on why John 3:16 talks about God sending his only begotten son, what son when John 1:1 talks about the word becoming flesh?

There is no logical contradiction with Trinitarian belief of three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), one nature (God). Christ's incarnation into human form meant he possessed both a human nature and a divine nature. While taking up human form, Christ submitted Himself to the Father. As such, Christ in His humanity chose not to know even though being divine He could know. (Phil 2:5-8) I recommend exploring these Christian theological concepts.

In John 1:1 the Word is said to be God. John 1:2-3 says the Word was in the beginning with God, that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. Thus, the Word cannot have been created into being but must have always existed. John 1:14 says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and God's glory was seen - "glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Thus, the Word was God (John 1:1), in the beginning with God (John 1:2), begotten of God dwelling in the fleshly form of man (John 1:14) yet uncreated (John 1:3). John strongly evidences Christ was God, but separate from the Father. Not that I question God the Father, but you might harder task yourself with finding where the deity of the Father is so evidently embraced in Scripture.

teixidoj wrote:Brothers and Sisters,

I understand what John 1:1 says that the word became flesh. This makes sense to me; I can even understand that the creator of the earth and time and space can be in multiple places at the same time. I can also see that God the father, the creator of all things became a man and lived among humanity and in multiple places at the same time. What I do not understand is when Jesus refers to the father as a third person in many of scriptures. For example John 3:16 says that God sent his only begotten son, but if Jesus and God are the same being what son is there to send?

I'm not trying to create a debate here, but I am a little confused. My heart tells me that God became flesh in the person of Jesus, but when the Bible has Jesus referring to God as a third person, it kind of contradicts my belief....

Remember that 1x1x1 always equals 1

The Old Testament usages of Yahweh, Elohim, El as well as how the OT uses second and third person speech when God speaks concerning himself and the thrice used variations of personal pronouns indicate something about God's nature: One God in three persons.

One God in three persons would look like this mathematically: 1x1x1=1.

Three separate Gods would look like this 1+1+1=3…

Next point to consider:

Did you not know that all living organisms, plants, etc, have three distinct different parts yet remain one?

Each part is vastly different than the other parts and each have differing attributes / functions that make each part distinct.. Yet, these three different parts make one.

For simplicity — a single cell organism his an outer shell, inside this shell are the internal organs, then you have a fluid substance. Each part is different than the other. Yet — it remains one.

Trunk of a tree has a hard outer shell (Bark) to provide protection, then you have the inner parts — the fibrous softer interior core and then the sap (Liquid).

Also, same with leaves and blades of grass, these all have three distinct parts themselves!

Yet, we have no trouble thinking these as one, despite each differing parts that make the whole — whole. We as humans have this evidence too: we have our skin and skeleton, then our internal organs, as well as fluids: Three main parts, each with different attributes that distinguishes these parts according to function. Even the human brain has three basic distinct parts!

This threeness as one is evident throughout creation.

Did you not know that atoms have three differing parts yet it remains one atom?

Since this threeness as one is evident and possible in creation — then why would it not be for God?

Now take the time to read Romans 1:20, 21

If an atom has three parts that make it an atom — why is it so inconceivable for one God to be three distinct persons in one essence?
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Kurieuo wrote: In John 1:1 the Word is said to be God. John 1:2-3 says the Word was in the beginning with God, that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. Thus, the Word cannot have been created into being but must have always existed. John 1:14 says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and God's glory was seen - "glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Don't forget that God *speaks* creation into existence. This is what is referred to as "the Word" ... God commanded the creation into existence.

I'm not trying to create a debate here, but I am a little confused. My heart tells me that God became flesh in the person of Jesus, but when the Bible has Jesus referring to God as a third person, it kind of contradicts my belief.

I am a father, and a son, and at one time a husband. I have often referred to myself in many different ways based on how others perceived me (given the social situation).

Jesus wore more than one hat. To you he was a brother, and to his father he was a son, but he is also to us a father (he is the father of Christianity if you will), he is also the bride of the church, etc and so on.

My daughter often sees me as her best friend, her dad, and online as her friend who helps with quests she has to do on the game we play.

My son calls me father, his kids call him the same.

When it comes to Jesus here he was more than one thing to many people- he became flesh while also being spirit, he was his own son so to speak. My son is half me in many ways through DNA, so he is both father and son.

"...My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no-one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 10:27-30

chance wrote:

I'm not trying to create a debate here, but I am a little confused. My heart tells me that God became flesh in the person of Jesus, but when the Bible has Jesus referring to God as a third person, it kind of contradicts my belief.

I am a father, and a son, and at one time a husband. I have often referred to myself in many different ways based on how others perceived me (given the social situation).

Jesus wore more than one hat. To you he was a brother, and to his father he was a son, but he is also to us a father (he is the father of Christianity if you will), he is also the bride of the church, etc and so on.

Where in the Bible is Jesus the "bride of the church"? I thought the true Church of Christ is the bride.

Rick, you would be correct. The church is referred to as, "the bride."