Evidence for God from Science

Was Abraham the first to be "called" to worship "God only" after the fall of Babylon and if so was there idol worship directly after Adam? The only thing I can find in the Bible is Babylon was the first of the idol worship. That would indicate everyone before then worshipped God only. Am I wrong in this thinking?

An interesting series of questions, Willevjas. I had never considered any of these until you brought them up; after a bit of searching, these are my answers:

willevjas wrote:Was Abraham the first to be "called" to worship "God only" after the fall of Babylon and if so was there idol worship directly after Adam?

There was idol worship directly after Adam. The guilty party was Cain.

willevjas wrote: The only thing I can find in the Bible is Babylon was the first of the idol worship.

Idolatry is insidious. You don't have to have a golden statue with fruit offerings at the entrance to your home for that to qualify as idolatry. Even so-called Christians may be idolatrous. An example: a young man recently told me that he keeps his Bible open at a certain Psalm in order to ward off nightmares. «Do you read the Bible?» I asked. «No, but it protects me!» he answered.

That is idolatry.

willevjas wrote: That would indicate everyone before then worshipped God only.

Most people who claim to be God's own are probably not in the sense of John 3:3, 31-33; and 4:13-14, 24, 34-38. You may say you are Jewish or Christian but God sees what you really are.

willevjas wrote:Am I wrong in this thinking?

Idolaters are all around you. Nimrod (before Abraham, see Ge 10:8-12) was an idolater as big as they come. I bet he kept his bible open at a certain Psalm too...*

FL

*I am using poetic license here. The Psalms weren't to be written for another 2000 or so years.

willevjas wrote:Was Abraham the first to be "called" to worship "God only" after the fall of Babylon and if so was there idol worship directly after Adam? The only thing I can find in the Bible is Babylon was the first of the idol worship. That would indicate everyone before then worshipped God only. Am I wrong in this thinking?

You can look at Genesis 6:5 as an indicator that idol worship may have been involved. From the progression of Adam to Abraham you would have family groups having knowledge of God being the one and only God passed on from Adam.

Some scholars (I'll have to look these up for you later) make a point that some of these persons were of a Yahwist tradition who maintained a concept of God (Elohim) passed on by Adam, Eve, Seth, and Cain, etc…

In Exodus 3:1, Jethro is mentioned as being a priest of Midian — meaning possibly and in all likelihood someone who held a Yahwist position about God being the only true God passed on by his forefathers.

Others, due to sin people basically did what Paul writes about in Romans 1:1-23…

Rom 1:19 - Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 - and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. KJV

Changed the glory of God into images…

So the logic is that if the progression of people from Adam to Noah became wicked then in all likelihood Idol worship was prevalent in Genesis 6:5

Noah would have been one of the last of Yahwist tradition at that time period who knew God as the only one and true God. The rest as Paul writes in Romans 1:23, 24, 25 — became corrupt, forgetting God and changed the truth about God into a lie, idols, etc…

I hope this helps a bit…

I'll see if I can find more web - references for this so you can check it out but for now since it is late try this site - http://barrybandstra.com/tables/pt1/pt1_tb2.htm

And the not so acturate Wikipedia as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahwist

There are books too on this subject as well
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Thanks for your insight. Now, just to figure out the difference between a yawhist and an elohist...off to the dictionary...

willevjas wrote:Thanks for your insight. Now, just to figure out the difference between a yawhist and an elohist...off to the dictionary...

You will find a lot of info on this subject but to make it short:

The Elohist tradition views Gods as distant, remote, appearing in dreams, one who reveals himself indirectly to people / humanity — think of John 6:38, 39 - John 12:49, 50

Yahwist tradition views God as near, involved directly in the affairs of people, one who reveals himself directly to people / humanity — think of John 1:1, 14

Both believe God is transcendent, knowable, and the only God. Both view Elohim and Yahweh as used in the bible according to their perspective view points. Yahwist view Elohim as they do Yahweh according to their tradition and Elohist view Yahweh according to their tradition…

In there own way, they both confirm the doctrine of the Trinity… Think about it.

From this we get to the textual criticism aspect of these traditions involved in the spelling of place names, etc…
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Continued below...

Continued from Above for more and better detials...

Both Yahwist and Elohist Traditions do connect in the Old Testament as well proving the Doctrine of the Trinity is thoroughly embedded within the text of the OT through the usages of the names, Yahweh, Elohim, El, Eloah, Ruach. Much of this connection is lost in our English Translations as well as from the late 3rd Century to Middle Age commentaries by Hebrew Scholars that influenced the reading of the OT and translations.

It is a safe bet that in Adam and Eve's unfallen state, they saw God as Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun and when referring to God would read as the Only Majestic Plural — One God. In other words, God is plural yet also One. Plural as meaning specific distinctions i.e. Persons make his One essense.

This fits with Isaiah 46:5, 9 and what God says about himself.

Isa 46:5, “To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?” JPS

Notice how the three ME's in verse 5 and the thrid person use of WE in verse 5 in reference to how people used him to fashion idols more a bit later.

Then look at verse 9:

Isa 46:9. “Remember the former things of old: that I am God(El- singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim — God Majestic Plural One), and there is none like Me…” JPS

Next, look at Psa 86:8. “There is none like unto Thee among the gods (HaElohim), O Lord (Adoni), and there are no works like Thine.” JPS

For God to be like other gods — The Lord would need to be a singular individual deity in the form like Zeus or any of the false documented deities the ancient pagan world once worshiped as they are in a class of individual singleness.

The Lord declares he is not like these. For there to be none like God simply means he, God is plural yet also One as there is none like him! Jesus revealed to us the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as does the OT and both Yahwist and Elohist Traditions that God has three distinct persons, yet One essence. Again read Isaiah 46:5 and note the use of we in that verse in its use in context.

Also note that God often in the OT uses third person speech when He is speaking about himself (Note Genesis 18:17, 18, 19 and Gen 1:26. But in Isa 46:5 - it connects to those perverting something - which Paul writes of in Romans 1.

This would truly mean that there is absolutely none like God as well as proves the Lord is not like any false deity in shape or form. What Human mind can fully grasp this completely and thus God is truly incomprehensible just as the bible teaches! We can gain a glimpse of his individual Glory but His full majestic Glory — remains indescribable! Truly there is none Like the LORD!

Now, this brings me back to Idols and Idol worship…

Please note what Paul writes in Romans 1Rom 1:19-23,

Romans 1:19, 20, “…because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse” NKJV

Notice the language used in these two verses and verse 20 that since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes were clearly seen and understood by the things that are made (Humanity was made and knew), His eternal power and Godhead (thei ótēs).

Godhead (thei ótēs) translated in the NASB reads as two words — Divine Nature. Paul is stating that at one time in the beginning that humanity knew and understood the Godhead (thei ótēs) — Divine Nature of God — i.e. the Trinity.

That is why we have the Yahwist and Elohist traditions and from theses something happened: the reality of God's divine nature fell away from the human mind as explained by Paul in…

Romans 1:21, 22, 23, “…because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things…” NKJV

Verse 23 states that they changed the glory (Plural Majesty) of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things — notice all singular form deities (Zeus, etc…)

In verse 23 the word translated change (NASB exchanged) means this: To change, alter, transform the form or nature of a thing…etc…

Now read verse 23 again: “and changed (altered, transformed, exchanged the form / nature of) the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things…”

Do you hear what Paul is saying?

Idols came about because humanity reduced, altered, transformed exchanged the form and nature of the glory of the incorruptible God into corruptible things…

Just like Isaiah 46:5, 6, 7, 8 - stated

The Glory of the Plural Majestic Elohim (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) yet one, was altered, transformed exchanged, reduced into corruptible things…Singular individualistic Idols, etc…

God does not want this and condemns this. Please note Exodus 20: 1-5:

“1 Then God (Elohim -God the Plural Majestic yet one) spoke all these words, saying, 2 "I am the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim - God the Plural Majestic yet one), who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

“3 "You shall have no other gods (elohim — many gods) before Me (Hebrew word 'Me' is the plural noun 'Panim' meaning Presenses/Faces - hense reading literally before my Presenses/Faces).

“4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

“5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim — God the Plural Majestic one), am a jealous God (EL —singular (one), visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me…” NASB

Look at verse 7 in Exodus and I added the definition of words for deeper meaning of the text. I suggest you, the reader, do your own word searches, studies and check out what I write…

Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the name (Character / attributes, Nature), of the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim -God the Plural Majestic yet one) in vain (Fraudulent, ruinous, useless, deceptive, worthless, vainful purposes), for the LORD (Yahweh) will not leave him unpunished who takes His name (Character/attributes, Nature), in vain (for fraudulent, ruinous, useless, deceptive, worthless, vainful purposes).”

I hope you can see that taking the name of the Lord in vain involves more than just using curse word… I fear for many TV ministers very souls! But thank the Lord for his grace in Jesus Christ and his chastisement!)

Back to Idols and to sum of what I am saying…

Idols came about because humanity exchanged the truth about God for a lie…. changed (altered, transformed, exchanged the form / nature of) the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things….

Idols can be also what we hold in our minds as Idols represent as well such as, popularity, one-upmanship, pop-stars, and etc, things we serve to become like or receive aid from. Please note that Ancient and modern pagans use idols to become like some attribute that the idol represents, seek its aid to get — become, crafty, wise, powerful…

Well I hope this helps shed a little light on how Idols came about…
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