Evidence for God from Science

yes i do believe in this but there are people like the mafia who go to church every sundays and pray to God, but as soon as they are out of church they are pointing a gun at someones head i mean ..they have faith..but are these people really saved?

God Bless !!!

We've already had a number of recent threads addressing this question.

Is salvation determined by actions?
You are going to get many opinions here, as many on this board do not agree with what defines saving faith.

Let me ask you this. Have you hated, or been angry with anyone since being saved? If so, then Christ sees you as a murderer.
Matthew 5:22 and 1 John 3:15 for reference.

There are also plenty of people who claim to have faith and then lie, gossip, slander, lust, commit adultery, steal, covet, etc. What about their actions? Are they saved or not? Rev. 21:8 lumps liars right in with murderers.

That doesn't really leave anyone any hope does it? Not if salvation depends on our ability to 'act' like we are saved. Even if we can put on a pious facade, God still sees every hidden thought that we have. I can't tell you how many times I've read the bible or heard a sermon and thought, 'I am not walking in a way that is pleasing to God.' (Now, I was right to think that way.) But many times in my life I would begin to question whether an actual saving work had been done in my life. I knew I had trusted in Christ Jesus as my Savior. But, my actions just didn't jive with what I knew to be true. This caused me much grief and I began to wonder what "I" had to do to get it right. I had heard preachers say that one must forsake all their sins to be saved. And there in lies the problem. Instead of trusting in Christ work for my salvation, I began to view my actions (work) as somehow able to contribute to His finished work. There is no peace in this message.

Jesus says in John 5:24, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

God can and will empower us to live sanctified lives. But like our salvation it is a response to Him.

All this does not mean that anyone who says they 'believe,' has actually believed. But this at least gets you started in this discussion.

Would a true believer continue to do things that would so obviously turn others off to Christ?

They do, all the time. It might not be as incidious as incest, but people believers lose their temper, disagree with others.

We know Jesus lived a perfect Holy life, and that turned people off as well. He socialized with the lowly, and they hated him for that.

I've had the same question. 'Shouldn't a beleiver act a certain way?' The problem is that I have acted in ways that are not in keeping with what I believe. Just the other day I lost my temper with my boss. Yesterday, I failed to do a good job comforting my nine year old when she was upset. I got mad at her for being upset. She knows what I believe, and the way I acted was not in line with that. Have I unsaved myself? Did I never actually trust in Christ?

It is easy for us to pick at the heinous sins (murder,rape) and white wash over our own. But what did Jesus die for? What is it you and I are saved from and to? We are saved from our sins. I don't want to dumb down the heinous nature of incest. But Jesus died to save you and I from our sins, just like He died to save the murderer and the rapist.

Going to a church building doesn't save you. Being a member doesn't save you. There are saved people who have never set foot in a church building. The thief on the cross was saved and he was hurling insults at Christ just moments before.

No question that Christ was always righteous in His anger. He did not sin.
Can you or I say the same? Or are we trying to justify our petty sins? Just a question.

The bible clearly says, "In your anger do not sin." Eph 4:26

Also, these are the words of Christ, not mine. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. (Matt. 5:21-22)
In the sermon on the mount, Christ equates lust with adultery and anger with murder. Would losing one's temper be anger? What is it I am missing here? It seems to me, that things we wink at, God sees as heinous.

So often in witnessing to the lost I find that they have a very flippant attitude towards sin. They think, 'I've never murdered anyone. I'm a good person.' Good people don't need saving. Now, it seems I'm having this same issue with a believer. I must admit that i am puzzled.
Jesus said, 'there are none good but God.' If you are I need a savior it is because we are in need of saving. And that includes every sin, past, present and future. Even the one's we don't think are that bad.

I've seem some very pious people fall, and fall very hard.

CeT-To wrote:yes i do believe in this but there are people like the mafia who go to church every sundays and pray to God, but as soon as they are out of church they are pointing a gun at someones head i mean ..they have faith..but are these people really saved?

God Bless !!!

Just because someone goes to church is no indication that they actually have faith...in many families church is simply a tradition...saying a prayer is mere formality...

they may have some element of "that's my religion, those are my beliefs" but that is no indication of a relationship with Christ

zoegirl wrote:

CeT-To wrote:yes i do believe in this but there are people like the mafia who go to church every sundays and pray to God, but as soon as they are out of church they are pointing a gun at someones head i mean ..they have faith..but are these people really saved?

God Bless !!!

Just because someone goes to church is no indication that they actually have faith...in many families church is simply a tradition...saying a prayer is mere formality...

they may have some element of "that's my religion, those are my beliefs" but that is no indication of a relationship with Christ

Yup. Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car.....

zoegirl wrote: Just because someone goes to church is no indication that they actually have faith...in many families church is simply a tradition...saying a prayer is mere formality...

they may have some element of "that's my religion, those are my beliefs" but that is no indication of a relationship with Christ

Yes.

Yup. Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car.....

jlay wrote:The bible clearly says, "In your anger do not sin." Eph 4:26

Yes. I don't know who you're arguing with, since the verse means that we will get angry - like lose our temper - yet, we need to stand back and not go farther and sin. To call on the Lord to help us, too.

Also, these are the words of Christ, not mine. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. (Matt. 5:21-22)
In the sermon on the mount, Christ equates lust with adultery and anger with murder. Would losing one's temper be anger? What is it I am missing here? It seems to me, that things we wink at, God sees as heinous.

Again, I don't know who you're arguing with. Committing adultery in our minds is just as bad as physically committing it, yes, and committing murder in our minds out of anger is just like actually doing it. But not all anger is about committing murder!!!!!! LOL, at least that's not what I think when I get angry.

So often in witnessing to the lost I find that they have a very flippant attitude towards sin. They think, 'I've never murdered anyone. I'm a good person.' Good people don't need saving. Now, it seems I'm having this same issue with a believer. I must admit that i am puzzled.

If this is what you think, you're thinking too much or too little or something. Lol. In human terms, we do think of sin in degrees. That's life here. If the Nazis lied to all the Jews instead of killing them, I don't think we would've reacted the way we did, or have had war crime trials in the same way! In any case, I would have no problem with talking with such a person and pointing out their sin. To God, and sin separates us from Him, whether it's a lie or whether it's murder.

Jesus said, 'there are none good but God.' If you are I need a savior it is because we are in need of saving. And that includes every sin, past, present and future. Even the one's we don't think are that bad.

I've seem some very pious people fall, and fall very hard.

Again, I don't know who you're arguing with.

In talking to those people, often it is obvious what *their* view of salvation is.

They will oftentimes refer to "we've always been a Christian family" or "hey, we go to church on Sundays....that's what we do"

That's revealing...that shows how they view Christianity ..

I'm sorry CSLL
What have I said explicity that would indicate that I am arguing? i am having a discussion.

Your position would seem to imply that some sins are OK for saved people, but not heinous ones. And that if someone commits those heinous sins then they likely aren't saved. Am i wrong here? I am simply pressing that question, since it is the basic premise that was brought up in the original post. It is a question that I myself have struggled with, and have given much thought and study to as of late.
So you are saying we agree that God sees sin, all sin, as heinous. Lying is mentioned in the same breathe as murder. lust (a thought) is condemned as adultery, and anger as murder. I've simply provided the scriptures that confirm such. That is not arguing.

If this is what you think, you're thinking too much or too little or something. Lol. In human terms, we do think of sin in degrees. That's life here. If the Nazis lied to all the Jews instead of killing them, I don't think we would've reacted the way we did, or have had war crime trials in the same way! In any case, I would have no problem with talking with such a person and pointing out their sin. To God, and sin separates us from Him, whether it's a lie or whether it's murder.

Of course not. Human perception versus God's perception. Which one matters in regards to salvation? You and I both agree it is God's and that a human's perception has zero to do with it. So, we have a thread that is based on this question. Human perception. We perceive the way a person acts or behaves, and then try to make a judgment regarding their salvation. What then are we equating salvation to? Actions/ behavior. So then what we are doing is saying, 'this (little) sin is OK if you are saved, but this sin (big) means you are not saved.' We are judging in a way that we would not want it measured unto ourselves. By your own admission, we don't see our sin, the way God does. We lack His perspective. In this same teaching (Matt. 5-7) where Jesus points out God's view of sin, and how lost we really are, He also points out to wary of judging in a wrong manner. (Matt. 7: 1-2)

Yes. I don't know who you're arguing with, since the verse means that we will get angry - like lose our temper

Are you saying that being angry and losing one's temper are the same thing? Because, I don't see it that way at all. 'Losing' one's temper, means one has lost control of their anger. Losing one's temper is acting out in anger, not just being angry.

FWIW, someone repeatedly asking, 'who are you arguing with,' can be perceived as picking an argument. I'm very interested in discussing this, even if there are disagreements.

well if a person acts like that they may not be saved, besides people like them need to repent anyways. Also just because you go to church doesn't mean your saved.

no no what i ment is irrevelant to the church, what i actually ment is that even bad people in a sense that they commit horrendous things and know its wrong and thats its a mortal sin yet they believe in christ and they dont stop, are they actually saved? i mean even satan believes in the Jesus Christ and what he has done for us by the way just for heads up im not tryin to start a fight im just looking for simple answers so please answer

Canuckster1127 wrote:

zoegirl wrote:

CeT-To wrote:yes i do believe in this but there are people like the mafia who go to church every sundays and pray to God, but as soon as they are out of church they are pointing a gun at someones head i mean ..they have faith..but are these people really saved?

God Bless !!!

Just because someone goes to church is no indication that they actually have faith...in many families church is simply a tradition...saying a prayer is mere formality...

they may have some element of "that's my religion, those are my beliefs" but that is no indication of a relationship with Christ

Yup. Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car.....

Love it - got to use that statement sometime!

CeT-To wrote:yes i do believe in this but there are people like the mafia who go to church every sundays and pray to God, but as soon as they are out of church they are pointing a gun at someones head i mean ..they have faith..but are these people really saved?

God Bless !!!

"Faith in Christ" and "Salvation" are meaningless cliches until you get the revelation from God !

Jesus gave his life at Calcary so that it could be received by receiving His Spirit (Pentecost onward) - see Galatians 3:13-14, John 7:37-39.

This is how Jesus saves! (Titus 3:5-6)

Have you received what ALL Jesus' disciples received then? (Acts 2:4, 33, 39)