Evidence for God from Science

Let me start out by saying I am Christan, and I have known and talked with people of many religions, as well as atheist and agnostics. An agnostic is something I can understand someone being because they take a no care attitude towards religion, ultimately not believing in any religion and following what science discovers (usually). Atheism is defined as someone who "denies the existence of God". My problem with that is they are denying something that they believe isn't there. For example, if I had an imaginary friend named Bob, and you knew Bob wasn't real, why would devote an entire belief towards proving that Bob isn't real? Shouldn't your knowledge of the situation be enough? I asked an Atheist this, and he responded "Religion is different since it is believed by so many, and influences so many". That still doesn't answer anything. If 80% of a group of people believed basketball is the best sport, are you going to start the "Anti-basketball club"? Although basketball is a viewable activity, you are denying that basketball is the best sport which is just opinion.

Another issue I don't understand is why they are so against the Christian values. I went to an atheist message board and decided to list the 10 commandments and ask what was wrong with them. I got numerous answers to why they were "stupid". I also listed some quotes from Jesus that they shunned as if they were hateful sentences. The atheists I have seen also, usually, have a hate towards religion (primarily Christianity). It is one thing to deny something, but to hate it as well? Why can't we get along and respect each others opinions? If I like pizza, but you don't, I'm not going to hate you. Food is not as serious or powerful a topic as religion, but it's still a personal belief. Although it sounds like I am disrespecting atheism, I surely don't hate them. I just believe their views are out of anger towards God. If they truly wanted to be for science and didn't care about God, they would just be agnostic.

eric246 wrote:Let me start out by saying I am Christan, and I have known and talked with people of many religions, as well as atheist and agnostics. An agnostic is something I can understand someone being because they take a no care attitude towards religion, ultimately not believing in any religion and following what science discovers (usually). Atheism is defined as someone who "denies the existence of God". My problem with that is they are denying something that they believe isn't there. For example, if I had an imaginary friend named Bob, and you knew Bob wasn't real, why would devote an entire belief towards proving that Bob isn't real? Shouldn't your knowledge of the situation be enough? I asked an Atheist this, and he responded "Religion is different since it is believed by so many, and influences so many". That still doesn't answer anything. If 80% of a group of people believed basketball is the best sport, are you going to start the "Anti-basketball club"? Although basketball is a viewable activity, you are denying that basketball is the best sport which is just opinion.

Another issue I don't understand is why they are so against the Christian values. I went to an atheist message board and decided to list the 10 commandments and ask what was wrong with them. I got numerous answers to why they were "stupid". I also listed some quotes from Jesus that they shunned as if they were hateful sentences. The atheists I have seen also, usually, have a hate towards religion (primarily Christianity). It is one thing to deny something, but to hate it as well? Why can't we get along and respect each others opinions? If I like pizza, but you don't, I'm not going to hate you. Food is not as serious or powerful a topic as religion, but it's still a personal belief. Although it sounds like I am disrespecting atheism, I surely don't hate them. I just believe their views are out of anger towards God. If they truly wanted to be for science and didn't care about God, they would just be agnostic.

Your concerns are well-founded but I'm afraid there is no getting through to this type of digmatic atheist who is full of such visceral hatred. I remember C. Hitchens once saying that, if there was a god, up in the heavens, watching our every move then it would be like a "celestial North Korea." I mean, this is not just a man who does not like the idea of God - he hates God.

Your post also reminds me of something Dinesh D'Souza once said in a debate..."I don't believe in Unicorns, yet I do not feel the need to write a book entitled Unicorns Are Not Great or The Unicorn Delusion. No. I live my life as though Unicorns do not exist."

Its almost as if they are afraid of something.........

My brother is a millitant athiest and I feel he does protest too much. I mean do they really hope for the alternative to God - Oblivion?

I mean we may all be wrong - but at least we hope for something better. It truely baffles me.

Silvertusk

eric246 wrote:Let me start out by saying I am Christan, and I have known and talked with people of many religions, as well as atheist and agnostics. An agnostic is something I can understand someone being because they take a no care attitude towards religion, ultimately not believing in any religion and following what science discovers (usually).

Please remember that atheism and agnosticism are philosophical positions, not attitudes. Associating such attitudes with them may or may not be appropriate.

Atheism is defined as someone who "denies the existence of God". My problem with that is they are denying something that they believe isn't there.

Atheism denies a proposition, namely, that "God exists." We believe that the proposition exists, just not that it is true.

For example, if I had an imaginary friend named Bob, and you knew Bob wasn't real, why would devote an entire belief towards proving that Bob isn't real? Shouldn't your knowledge of the situation be enough? I asked an Atheist this, and he responded "Religion is different since it is believed by so many, and influences so many". That still doesn't answer anything. If 80% of a group of people believed basketball is the best sport, are you going to start the "Anti-basketball club"? Although basketball is a viewable activity, you are denying that basketball is the best sport which is just opinion.

That "the best sport" is a subjective value judgment, whereas the existence of God is a matter of fact, considerably limits your analogy. A better analogy might be to observe those who devote large amounts of time and energy into debunking the allegations that vaccinations cause autism. What's the story with these people? Why do they care so much about some fringe pseudoscience?

The same questions can be asked of vocal atheists. Why do we bother? What's the point in spending all this time talking about it? Why is it so important?

In my case, the answer is quite simple: I just happen to enjoy it. I was raised in an intensely religious home, and although I lost my faith many years ago, I never lost my enthusiasm. But now of course I'm on the other side of the fence, philosophically.

I really enjoy ancient history, as well, especially Christian history. I know a fair amount for someone without much formal training, and this further fuels my desire to talk about it. You might say that studying and discussing Christianity and its history is a hobby of mine. I do it so long as I get a kick out of it.

Other people have different motives, of course. Many ex-Christians feel resentment towards those who, in their judgment, incompetently fed them misinformation throughout their childhood. Others have political hot buttons which are excited in some way by religion. It really depends on the person.

Still other atheists simply don't care to discuss religion at all. These people, quite obviously, are not nearly as visible as more vocal atheists.

Hopefully that helps.

Another issue I don't understand is why they are so against the Christian values. I went to an atheist message board and decided to list the 10 commandments and ask what was wrong with them. I got numerous answers to why they were "stupid". I also listed some quotes from Jesus that they shunned as if they were hateful sentences. The atheists I have seen also, usually, have a hate towards religion (primarily Christianity). It is one thing to deny something, but to hate it as well? Why can't we get along and respect each others opinions? If I like pizza, but you don't, I'm not going to hate you. Food is not as serious or powerful a topic as religion, but it's still a personal belief. Although it sounds like I am disrespecting atheism, I surely don't hate them. I just believe their views are out of anger towards God. If they truly wanted to be for science and didn't care about God, they would just be agnostic.

Unfortunately not everyone thinks this way. I'm like you insofar as I have nothing against religious people. But some atheists do harbor anger and/or resentment, and no doubt you have encountered much of it in your online experiences. I can only remind you that we're not all so aggressive. Many of us just enjoy the topic of religion.

I might also point out that there are plenty of Christians with similar feelings about unbelievers---on this very message board, even. So, the problem you see is by no means limited to atheism or atheists.

Finally, let's remember that sometimes fiery rhetoric is dramatized for effect, and not representative of genuine anger or aggression. For example, when Paul tells the Galatians that he hopes the knife slips for those who seek circumcision, does he really mean that he desires these men to suffer castration? Rather, he's driving home the importance of his message with a rhetorical device. This same linguistic approach remains in use in modern times. Now, I'm not suggesting that every aggressive atheist is really calm underneath the surface. But we must be careful not to automatically interpret strong words as reflecting equally strong emotion.

For the OP, I have no problem whatsoever seeing this as a spiritual battle, which it is. There are atheists out there, I'm sure, who are at peace with themselves and others and let everyone "be." (Although one book I recently read by a Ph.d. scientist, who talked with many atheists, claimed that most of them were closet agnostics.) Other atheists who are "militant" and have an ax to grind obviously have an agenda. I saw Hitchens speak once and he didn't even make any sense. Mother Theresa was evil, he said (yeah, sure, I want to listen to him). He said that because the universe is going to end, and us with it, then the maker of it - if there was one - was evil. Sounds like a closet agnostic to me, and one who thinks his morality is superior. He also blamed violence on religion, which is odd but which many people want to believe. Humans tend to violence, whether religion is around or not; religion is often used as confirmation of power, and justification for violence. At any rate, I wouldn't worry about them too much. We are to witness, yes, in love, but we can't do all. We do what we can, what we're lead to do, and pray, and move on, keeping our eyes on Christ all the while.

Well I don't understand atheism either or why someone would want to go that route.. Nor do I wish to..

hatsoff wrote:

eric246 wrote:Let me start out by saying I am Christan, and I have known and talked with people of many religions, as well as atheist and agnostics. An agnostic is something I can understand someone being because they take a no care attitude towards religion, ultimately not believing in any religion and following what science discovers (usually).

Please remember that atheism and agnosticism are philosophical positions, not attitudes. Associating such attitudes with them may or may not be appropriate.

Atheism is defined as someone who "denies the existence of God". My problem with that is they are denying something that they believe isn't there.

Atheism denies a proposition, namely, that "God exists." We believe that the proposition exists, just not that it is true.

For example, if I had an imaginary friend named Bob, and you knew Bob wasn't real, why would devote an entire belief towards proving that Bob isn't real? Shouldn't your knowledge of the situation be enough? I asked an Atheist this, and he responded "Religion is different since it is believed by so many, and influences so many". That still doesn't answer anything. If 80% of a group of people believed basketball is the best sport, are you going to start the "Anti-basketball club"? Although basketball is a viewable activity, you are denying that basketball is the best sport which is just opinion.

That "the best sport" is a subjective value judgment, whereas the existence of God is a matter of fact, considerably limits your analogy. A better analogy might be to observe those who devote large amounts of time and energy into debunking the allegations that vaccinations cause autism. What's the story with these people? Why do they care so much about some fringe pseudoscience?

The same questions can be asked of vocal atheists. Why do we bother? What's the point in spending all this time talking about it? Why is it so important?

In my case, the answer is quite simple: I just happen to enjoy it. I was raised in an intensely religious home, and although I lost my faith many years ago, I never lost my enthusiasm. But now of course I'm on the other side of the fence, philosophically.

I really enjoy ancient history, as well, especially Christian history. I know a fair amount for someone without much formal training, and this further fuels my desire to talk about it. You might say that studying and discussing Christianity and its history is a hobby of mine. I do it so long as I get a kick out of it.

Other people have different motives, of course. Many ex-Christians feel resentment towards those who, in their judgment, incompetently fed them misinformation throughout their childhood. Others have political hot buttons which are excited in some way by religion. It really depends on the person.

Still other atheists simply don't care to discuss religion at all. These people, quite obviously, are not nearly as visible as more vocal atheists.

Hopefully that helps.

Another issue I don't understand is why they are so against the Christian values. I went to an atheist message board and decided to list the 10 commandments and ask what was wrong with them. I got numerous answers to why they were "stupid". I also listed some quotes from Jesus that they shunned as if they were hateful sentences. The atheists I have seen also, usually, have a hate towards religion (primarily Christianity). It is one thing to deny something, but to hate it as well? Why can't we get along and respect each others opinions? If I like pizza, but you don't, I'm not going to hate you. Food is not as serious or powerful a topic as religion, but it's still a personal belief. Although it sounds like I am disrespecting atheism, I surely don't hate them. I just believe their views are out of anger towards God. If they truly wanted to be for science and didn't care about God, they would just be agnostic.

Unfortunately not everyone thinks this way. I'm like you insofar as I have nothing against religious people. But some atheists do harbor anger and/or resentment, and no doubt you have encountered much of it in your online experiences. I can only remind you that we're not all so aggressive. Many of us just enjoy the topic of religion.

I might also point out that there are plenty of Christians with similar feelings about unbelievers---on this very message board, even. So, the problem you see is by no means limited to atheism or atheists.

Finally, let's remember that sometimes fiery rhetoric is dramatized for effect, and not representative of genuine anger or aggression. For example, when Paul tells the Galatians that he hopes the knife slips for those who seek circumcision, does he really mean that he desires these men to suffer castration? Rather, he's driving home the importance of his message with a rhetorical device. This same linguistic approach remains in use in modern times. Now, I'm not suggesting that every aggressive atheist is really calm underneath the surface. But we must be careful not to automatically interpret strong words as reflecting equally strong emotion.

Absolutely. I am an agnostic/atheist considering God, and have been since I was about 14 years old or so, so I understand this view. There are two distinct forms of atheism. Those who don't believe in God and leave it at that, and those who are on a militant mission to disprove religion at all costs and bring others down. I don't understand the second kind, what purpose does it serve the militant atheist to destroy the hopes of another man, even if they are wrong? Even if God is fake and does not exist, who cares? Let the man be and live happily, convinced he will have more things to come. Why would anyone want to scare another into the idea of non-existence after death? Frankly, I think that's just being an obnoxious bully who want's everyone else to be as hopeless as he is.

I've followed some of your posts and do not put you in the second category, I simply think you believe there's a lack of evidence to support God. Fair enough, nobody needs to put you down for that. Likewise, no atheist should put down the Christian for his beliefs.

You shouldn't bother talking to atheist people in the 1st place, all they like to do insult people and their religions, I think especially christianity because our symbol is considered offensive as of the case to a Muslim their's isn't. Besides Jesus is warning people of how unfaithful people will get.

youngmatt wrote:You shouldn't bother talking to atheist people in the 1st place, all they like to do insult people and their religions, I think especially christianity because our symbol is considered offensive as of the case to a Muslim their's isn't. Besides Jesus is warning people of how unfaithful people will get.

Yes but the time has come for us to face down the atheists, who have been on the attack unopposed for far too long now...

DannyM wrote:

youngmatt wrote:You shouldn't bother talking to atheist people in the 1st place, all they like to do insult people and their religions, I think especially christianity because our symbol is considered offensive as of the case to a Muslim their's isn't. Besides Jesus is warning people of how unfaithful people will get.

Yes but the time has come for us to face down the atheists, who have been on the attack unopposed for far too long now...

I cannot say I agree with you youngmatt. Dialogue is exactly what athiets and theists need to have. The issue is that it is very difficult to get atheists and theists talking in an environment of mutual respect. Most atheists do not just sit around all day looking to insult people. The same can be said for Christians, however it is always the smallest group of fanatics on either side of the fence that yell the loudest, leaving the rational people looking like fools because of the rantings of few. Mr. Hitchens is a perfect example. I find his arguments compelling and interesting but I strongly disagree with his insistance on 'condemning and ridiculing' theists. This is uneccesary and turns off potential atheists the way being told you are going to hell for minor sins turns off potential Christians. Mr. Hitchens gives atheism a bad name because he is (take a picture you will probably never hear an atheist say this again) an alchoholic mouthpiece who loves attention. He is no different than some of the extreme right Christian commentators in that he teaches people to hate people who do not conform to his beleif system.

DannyM, rather than face down atheists we should ignore people who bring nothing other than hate to the table. Atheists and theists alike. It is the radicals on both sides that ruin the debate for everyone and make living with one another difficult. These spin doctors on either side of the fence make conversation emotional and irrational. Thats just my opinion.

SweetMonkeyLove wrote:rather than face down atheists we should ignore people who bring nothing other than hate to the table. Atheists and theists alike. It is the radicals on both sides that ruin the debate for everyone and make living with one another difficult. These spin doctors on either side of the fence make conversation emotional and irrational.

+1

SweetMonkeyLove wrote: DannyM, rather than face down atheists we should ignore people who bring nothing other than hate to the table. Atheists and theists alike. It is the radicals on both sides that ruin the debate for everyone and make living with one another difficult. These spin doctors on either side of the fence make conversation emotional and irrational. Thats just my opinion.

The only atheists I am interested in facing down are the militant atheists, which is why I sometimes frequent an atheist forum. The Christian is called upon to stand up for his faith and give answers to those who question his faith. If you are an atheist then I have no interest in "facing you down" as you know how to have a discussion without resorting to mockery and anti-empirical rhetoric. So you and I would discuss at will.

Fantastic DannyM I was sure I had misunderstood you.

The majority of Atheist that I have come in contact with were actually former Christians. They seem to know their bible better than most, however it's always out of context. They operate very much like a cult would, taking single verses and building an entire doctrine out of it (like God is evil), while ignoring the whole of scripture. When I would call them on it most would suddenly disengage. They can't handle looking at what the bible really has to say. In my estimation they are purposefully and willfully ignorant.

touchingcloth wrote:

SweetMonkeyLove wrote:rather than face down atheists we should ignore people who bring nothing other than hate to the table. Atheists and theists alike. It is the radicals on both sides that ruin the debate for everyone and make living with one another difficult. These spin doctors on either side of the fence make conversation emotional and irrational.

+1

+2