Evidence for God from Science

I have to admit, I have been reading a lot of things lately, and I feel like some kind of flip flopper. One minute I feel like I can be faithful and become a Christian, and then I read atheist message boards and revert back. Then I read other materials and switch back and feel better again. I really feel at this point that I could swing either way, but I need some help in doing so. I need those of you who are strong believers if you are willing, to provide to me your strongest arguments for Christianity. I don't really need any atheist refutations or commentary here, as I know what those are and read them on an almost daily basis. I don't want to you feel like im excluding those who don't believe but this is a direct question to those who follow the faith and I don't want this to turn into an "is God real?" battle.

If possible to those who say that have had direct experiences with Jesus or the supernatural, please I implore you to elaborate on those experiences and share them in detail. While I am skeptical, I find no reason that you'd lie to me. So please, use any resource or personal experience of God and Jesus you have to help strengthen my faith or to help me find it.

This is something I have been having trouble with for many years now, and very well be the most important issue of my life. Please help me my friends, you are very kind and I trust your word and judgment.

PaulB007 wrote:I have to admit, I have been reading a lot of things lately, and I feel like some kind of flip flopper. One minute I feel like I can be faithful and become a Christian, and then I read atheist message boards and revert back. Then I read other materials and switch back and feel better again. I really feel at this point that I could swing either way, but I need some help in doing so. I need those of you who are strong believers if you are willing, to provide to me your strongest arguments for Christianity.

I don't really need any atheist refutations or commentary here, as I know what those are and read them on an almost daily basis. I don't want to you feel like im excluding those who don't believe but this is a direct question to those who follow the faith and I don't want this to turn into an "is God real?" battle.

If possible to those who say that have had direct experiences with Jesus or the supernatural, please I implore you to elaborate on those experiences and share them in detail. While I am skeptical, I find no reason that you'd lie to me. So please, use any resource or personal experience of God and Jesus you have to help strengthen my faith or to help me find it.

This is something I have been having trouble with for many years now, and very well be the most important issue of my life. Please help me my friends, you are very kind and I trust your word and judgment.

First thing - please stay off atheist forums until you can get grounded in your faith would be my first bit of advise. Next, try going to the Home Page of this website and look through all the articles concerning atheism.

My strongest experince is Christ working in me - changing me day by day. I suggest praying that you ask the Lord to speak over you his words so that his words come to pass in your life - which they will despite what you do. His words cleanse us, prunes us, creates relationships between Himself and other Christians, His words he speaks over us helps us to obey him and much more than I can write. Read Isaiah 55:10, 11, 12 for the reason why I suggest asking the Lord to speak His words over you and then read to John 15:16
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Thank you. I've read a good deal of the articles on the main page that I do enjoy. I'd say one thing in particular that bothers me is how reliable the gospel accounts are.

PaulB007 wrote:I'd say one thing in particular that bothers me is how reliable the gospel accounts are.

Keep company with drunks and you'll become a drunk. Keep company with theives and you'll become a theif. Keep company with atheists and you'll become a...fool. As B.W. said,

B. W. wrote:First thing - please stay off atheist forums until you can get grounded in your faith would be my first bit of advise.

Both B.W. and I are former atheists and fools. Take our advice: stay away from atheist forums for now. Are you willing to do this?

FL

PaulB007 wrote:Thank you. I've read a good deal of the articles on the main page that I do enjoy. I'd say one thing in particular that bothers me is how reliable the gospel accounts are.

The Gospels are some of if not THE most reliable historical documents to ever exist. Atheist forums are a joke in my experience. Once you are strong in your faith and can defend your faith then you will see through the non-empirical bluster that the atheists really espouse. I'm sure right now you think they have the "upper hand"... ; sorry to put this bluntly but this is because you can't tell a solid argument from dogmatic rhetoric. Stick here for true and open debate. You'll find no profanities here, no jolly old back-slapping, no ganging up on one poster by half a dozen to a dozen posters and no full on attacks on others because of the beliefs they hold. But hey, you're not on an atheist forum.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I'd say one thing in particular that bothers me is how reliable the gospel accounts are.

Both B.W. and I are former atheists and fools. Take our advice: stay away from atheist forums for now. Are you willing to do this?

FL

Yes I will.

DannyM wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:Thank you. I've read a good deal of the articles on the main page that I do enjoy. I'd say one thing in particular that bothers me is how reliable the gospel accounts are.

The Gospels are some of if not THE most reliable historical documents to ever exist. Atheist forums are a joke in my experience. Once you are strong in your faith and can defend your faith then you will see through the non-empirical bluster that the atheists really espouse. I'm sure right now you think they have the "upper hand"... ; sorry to put this bluntly but this is because you can't tell a solid argument from dogmatic rhetoric. Stick here for true and open debate. You'll find no profanities here, no jolly old back-slapping, no ganging up on one poster by half a dozen to a dozen posters and no full on attacks on others because of the beliefs they hold. But hey, you're not on an atheist forum.

I hope to come to this same conclusion. I have ordered a book called the historical reliability of the gospels by Craig Blomberg for additional reading.

You are right as well that I can't tell a solid argument from dogmatic rhetoric. I am a newbie to this and am kind of overwhelmed as to who's right and who's wrong. I wonder in my mind why so many people violently oppose religion.

One of the most troubling things I hear that makes me wonder is when people say that people created God because of man's natural fear to death.

PaulB007 wrote:I hope to come to this same conclusion. I have ordered a book called the historical reliability of the gospels by Craig Blomberg for additional reading.

You are right as well that I can't tell a solid argument from dogmatic rhetoric. I am a newbie to this and am kind of overwhelmed as to who's right and who's wrong. I wonder in my mind why so many people violently oppose religion.

One of the most troubling things I hear that makes me wonder is when people say that people created God because of man's natural fear to death.

Atheist fundamentalists oppose religion because they are intolerant of others people's beliefs. Some of the more deluded atheist fundamentalists hold to the view that religion "causes war" and is responsible for all the bloodshed in history. They show their true intellectual deficiencies when they venture into this territory. It all boils down to an intolerance that, applied in any other walk of life, would probably be viewed as a "hate crime."

Can you be more specific regarding this "fear of death" connection to God's creation by man...? I'd like to know what specific "arguments" you have heard from atheists. The "wishful thinking" argument is fallacious when used to try to explain away the truthfulness of God's existence. Of course there is comfort to be had in one's beliefs. Many different people gain much comfort from a variety of beliefs. However, for the Christian this comfort has no bearing on the truthfulness of God's existence/nonexistence; there is no empirical connection here and it is yet another atheist "argument" that has no grounding in empiricism and the scientific method. You see? While there is evidence for beliefs bringing comfort to many people (you hardly need to be a scientist to understand this), this has no bearing on the truthfulness or otherwise of the belief.

DannyM wrote:

PaulB007 wrote:I hope to come to this same conclusion. I have ordered a book called the historical reliability of the gospels by Craig Blomberg for additional reading.

You are right as well that I can't tell a solid argument from dogmatic rhetoric. I am a newbie to this and am kind of overwhelmed as to who's right and who's wrong. I wonder in my mind why so many people violently oppose religion.

One of the most troubling things I hear that makes me wonder is when people say that people created God because of man's natural fear to death.

Atheist fundamentalists oppose religion because they are intolerant of others people's beliefs. Some of the more deluded atheist fundamentalists is the view that "religion causes war" and is responsible for all the bloodshed in history. They show their true intellectual deficiencies when they venture into this territory. It all boils down to an intolerance that, applied in any other walk of life, would probably be viewed as a "hate crime."

Can you be more specific regarding this "fear of death" connection to God's creation by man...? I'd like to know what specific "arguments" you have heard from atheists. The "wishful thinking" argument is fallacious when used to try to explain away the truthfulness of God's existence. Of course there is comfort to be had in one's beliefs. Many different people gain much comfort from a variety of beliefs. However, for the Christian this comfort has no bearing on the truthfulness of God's existence/nonexistence; there is no empirical connection here and it is yet another atheist "argument" that has no grounding in empiricism and the scientific method. You see? While there is evidence for beliefs bringing comfort to many people (you hardly need to be a scientist to understand this), this has no bearing on the truthfulness or otherwise of the belief.

The whole religious war thing is not something that I have fallen for as the word of Christ completely contradicts the actions of religious wars and the like, it is man corrupting God's word, not God corrupting man. It is a very fallacious argument that I don't buy and never really have.

Some of the arguments I hear commonly are that man is afraid of dying and losing his consciousness after death therefore invented God and the afterlife to comfort him. That there is evidence of man existing before Moses wrote Genesis, so how would anyone know that God existed in any kind of historical context? How can one know Moses simply didn't make up the whole thing?

Another is other religions existing before or around the time Moses wrote Genesis. If the God of Israel is the only true God, where were there other God's before Moses was made aware of the God of Israel?

Another is other religions existing before or around the time Moses wrote Genesis. If the God of Israel is the only true God, where were there other God's before Moses was made aware of the God of Israel?

I would have quoted more that you had written but wanted to touch on this.

The problem with many today is that we keep making God into our image - we think about how we would have done things, ask why our God didn't do things the same way, etc.

At one time I rejected the bible and God and went looking for answers outside of it all. It was a good exercise for me. I came back having more faith than I had before.

It is hard for to encapsulate here easily - but think of it like this if you can:

God creates a new creature and gives them freewill. We were not his only creations, not the only beings in his universe, maybe just one of many.

We, like some of his angels, decide we don't need him and rebel. He revealed himself in various ways over time to others, but us humans keep getting it wrong and keep reading into it all our own motivations (ie - some wanted power over others and we twisted it to meet our own needs). God chooses one group to focus on, and to bring salvation to us - we sinned liked Lucifer did and were therefore 'damned' - but God felt we never had a chance and stepped in on our behalf to balance the books.

He had to be consistent, that is his nature, but instead of letting us die for our sins he crushed the head of Lucifer (his ego) and came here himself and died for us (ie - the equations of the universe were balanced by that act - a sinless man died).

Other people on the earth at the time heard God's voice, and incorporated it in some ways.

These 'other gods' people worshiped were but one branch of the same one - they just did not get the bigger picture, and because he could only come here as one person he chose to do so though the Jewish people (or arab peoples if you will). Once here he directed his followers to go out and proclaim 'the good news' to others - that they had been heard, they were loved, and that they were saved. They did not need human or animal sacrifices, etc.

God has rules he follows - which is important to know. We make God out to be all powerful - yet he himself has put restrictions on himself. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, etc. He does not want a bunch of Cylons/Robots. He gave us freewill, and we are responsible for what we have done with it all.

I hear often people say 'Why would God let such and such happen?' and I fall back to physics: F=Gm1m2/r^2 - the further two bodies are away the less influence they have over one another.

God was/is here - but we keep moving farther away from him and then wondering why he is not doing more for us.

And then here we are - and we don't do enough for one another. We don't help the homeless, we wage wars, etc.

I believe in God. I don't believe in US anymore though.

Interesting response, thanks for that. Considering all the evidence and reasons for believing that a lot of people around here proclaim there to be, I wonder why I am not getting any other responses? I am not a guy wanting to jeer for answers, I have an honest intent to find my way into Christianity but the road has been a tough one. Especially getting over my strict materialistic views.

Paul, the best I can give you is that, for me, Christianity just makes sense, and satisfies on every level. From a personal experience, Christ is the best relationship; my savior, my friend, the perfect love, the perfect mercy, the perfect justice, the perfect grace. He has rescued me from my sins, as it says in the hymn, from the guilt and power of sin. I am not perfect but He certainly is.

I have read Mere Christianity and from an apologetics perspective, all the puzzle pieces fell together. The more I read of the Bible the more I see the cohesiveness, the grand plan, the mercy of God throughout, from His protection and deliverance of His people (His steadfast mercy to a fickle nation) to His provision for redeeming His people. Every book has something to offer, every account of people, every story satisfies when understood in that grand plan. I mean, this is God we are talking about, a God who loves so much and so completely that He does not withhold any part of Himself. We write pitiful stories heralding noble deeds and here you have the epitome of nobility and sacrifice...This is indeed something to praise!!! He has given His life and conquered death and merely asks us to believe in Him and what He did.

I have seen His grace in my life even in the midst of pain and loneliness, His comfort, His peace, and His joy...He does not promise all flowers and hearts and some naive picture of a frolicking life, He does promise life and a relationship with Him....what more can you ask?

What else can I say? I'm not saying I have my weak moments....goodness knows that's why I need Him. The more I understand myself and the more I understand Him, the more I see the need for Him and grasp the concept of grace more fully.


All I can say, Paul, is that you should ask Him to reveal Himself to you, read His word. You will not know HIm and the joy He can bring by arguing your way into it. You can study, sure, but just as you wouldn't get to know your wife simply by reading accounts of what she did, you would spend time with her. It's a relationship

What else would you want to know?

PaulB007 wrote:Interesting response, thanks for that. Considering all the evidence and reasons for believing that a lot of people around here proclaim there to be, I wonder why I am not getting any other responses? I am not a guy wanting to jeer for answers, I have an honest intent to find my way into Christianity but the road has been a tough one. Especially getting over my strict materialistic views.

Paul, on what basis do you hold to strict materialism?

This might be a loaded question, but how do we know with certainty that the gospel writers didn't just make this up? Is there records outside of the gospel that mention Paul?

Oh man Paul; this is one massive can of worms right here, there are thousands of events, stories and experiences that lead to my personal belief in Jesus, however in the interest of trying to keep the length of this post shorter than a novel I'll just tell you one story in particular that was impactful in my life.

A few months ago there were a few sermons at my church about “walking across the room” and the basic idea was to take little steps towards the people who were already fairly close to you and begin to talk to them about the person of Jesus. One particular Sunday the pastor challenged everyone in the body to try and write their own personal journey with Christ. To describe where they came from, how they came to know Jesus, and how they've grown because of their faith in one hundred words or less. Now I enjoy a good challenge I have a bit of a competitive spirit and this immediately got my attention. I thought this was perfect, I can do this, 100 words isn't too big so I can put down the important stuff about Christianity and probably even finish in 80 words. Words can't even express how wrong I was, I wish there was an easy way to explain everything, give you the golden nugget to Christianity that clears everything up. Like you said this is the most important issue in your life, in anyone's life for that matter and unfortunately the more important things are the more complicated the answers seem to be. I'm not going to pretend that I know everything, that it all makes sense to me and I have it all figured out, it's almost the complete opposite, it's an inverse relationship of sorts, the more you understand the more you realize what little grasp you have on comprehending everything that goes on in the universe.
Going back to the sermon I mentioned, I think when I first heard the message that day I completely missed the point he was trying to make. He wasn't trying to get everyone to write down a short all in one answer to Christianity, he was looking for individual stories, examples of what being in a relationship with God brings you, what it looks like to be in an earnest and devoted relationship with God, and last but not least, how you start that lasting relationship. The last one was the big one for me, where do I start, how does this everlasting eternal relationship begin, and I'd like to suggest it begins with a leap, that before that bridge known as the cross, there is a little gap and on the other side is God with open arms ready to receive us into his kingdom. Imagine, if you will, a 17 year old control freak with one plan, go to college, one college in particular. And for me all it took was a letter back from that college saying your application had been deferred to realize that there were some things that were out of my control, and that the system I had going, trying to control and plan everything just wasn't working. And that's when I finally surrendered, I said I give up I can't do it, everything is in your hands God, I believe you know what is best. As I said before I don't have it all figured out now, I wasn't even close then, but I knew enough, I knew that Jesus Christ died and was resurrected so that my sin would be washed away, and I knew I couldn't do it alone, that there were things in the world I couldn't control, I couldn't handle by myself and I needed someone like Jesus by my side all the time making sure I get through the day. So I took a leap of faith, realizing that what I had going wasn't working for me, and knowing that I don't have all the answers and will probably never will.

So my question for you is what are you waiting for? Maybe, if I might be so bold as to suggest that it's time to stop trying to figure every little thing out and just go for it, like zoegirl said you aren't going to try and get to know your wife by reading about what she did, nor would you get to know a personal God by simply reading and analyzing. Maybe it's time to put aside the indecision and just do it. Take that leap you can't fully understand in your head but you know is right in your heart.