Evidence for God from Science

Was Jesus sacrifice meaningful? I mean he knew he was gonna resurrect and live for all eternity as God (with him being God and all).
It's like giving a homeless guy your last sandwich knowing you have a whole buffet around the corner. It is just meaningless. Or can someone shine a different light on it?

Manfer84 wrote:Was Jesus sacrifice meaningful? I mean he knew he was gonna resurrect and live for all eternity as God (with him being God and all).
It's like giving a homeless guy your last sandwich knowing you have a whole buffet around the corner. It is just meaningless. Or can someone shine a different light on it?

Good question Manfer84. It does mean something indeed. He knew He would resurrect, yes that is true, but He still had to suffer our death for our sins. When He resurrected He conquered the death we should have had, He over came hell and the grave, His blood washed away our sins and His resurrection shows that some day we too will resurrect. Also remember He knew that it was going to be painful and a hard burden to bare. He prayed before it happened that the burden would be taken away from Him, His human side was afraid, yet He loved us so much that even though He could have stopped it, He went through with it anyway and died for you and me and then rose up to overcome death. That is the way I see it, perhaps someone else can give a better response, but you asked the same question I did when I was first believing.
God Bless

I never said he didn't suffer or that it didn't hurt, it probably did and a lot, or that he felt human fear, that's not what I'm questioning, the point is the validity of the sacrifice knowing full well that at the end you are going to be alright.
It would be like (excuse the example but I´m a big comic but fan) Wolverine taking a bullet for me, I would thank him sure but that's it, it wouldn't mean much, since he recovers like it's nothing, it hurt him but he just bounces back up.

Manfer84 wrote:Was Jesus sacrifice meaningful? I mean he knew he was gonna resurrect and live for all eternity as God (with him being God and all).
It's like giving a homeless guy your last sandwich knowing you have a whole buffet around the corner. It is just meaningless. Or can someone shine a different light on it?

Was Jesus' death and sacrifice meaningful? Your analogy of the buffet falls down - even if the buffet around the corner is big enough to feed every starving man in America - because it doesn't offer a cure to future starvation. Jesus' sacrifice is the ULTIMATE sacrifice. He took the sins of man upon His shoulders. He entered space and time, gave Himself over, just so that you and I could secure redemption in the eyes of God. Now, if THAT'S not meaningful, then we might as well just pack up our things and go home. There exists NOT ONE act of love which can compare...It is almost beyond comprehension, yet we somehow comprehend this amazing act of grace. Praise Him. Receive Him in to your heart.

Manfer84 wrote:I never said he didn't suffer or that it didn't hurt, it probably did and a lot, or that he felt human fear, that's not what I'm questioning, the point is the validity of the sacrifice knowing full well that at the end you are going to be alright.
It would be like (excuse the example but I´m a big comic but fan) Wolverine taking a bullet for me, I would thank him sure but that's it, it wouldn't mean much, since he recovers like it's nothing, it hurt him but he just bounces back up.

As scripture states, Jesus emptied himself of all Godliness so he can experience what it's like to be man to the fullest, including being tempted (but never sinning). This means Jesus could have saved himself but chose not to. He could have decided to not feel pain but chose to. Instead he put his complete and total trust in God the Father to raise him from the dead after 3 days and in all his humanness never once doubted that it will happen.

To use your own (albeit crude) analogy, it's the equivalent of having Wolverine accept the complete removal of all his powers and telling him to trust Charles Xavier that he will raise him after dying for 3 days. What do you think he'd say to that?

Byblos wrote:

Manfer84 wrote:I never said he didn't suffer or that it didn't hurt, it probably did and a lot, or that he felt human fear, that's not what I'm questioning, the point is the validity of the sacrifice knowing full well that at the end you are going to be alright.
It would be like (excuse the example but I´m a big comic but fan) Wolverine taking a bullet for me, I would thank him sure but that's it, it wouldn't mean much, since he recovers like it's nothing, it hurt him but he just bounces back up.

As scripture states, Jesus emptied himself of all Godliness so he can experience what it's like to be man to the fullest, including being tempted (but never sinning). This means Jesus could have saved himself but chose not to. He could have decided to not feel pain but chose to. Instead he put his complete and total trust in God the Father to raise him from the dead after 3 days and in all his humanness never once doubted that it will happen.

To use your own (albeit crude) analogy, it's the equivalent of having Wolverine accept the complete removal of all his powers and telling him to trust Charles Xavier that he will raise him after dying for 3 days. What do you think he'd say to that?

If he knew full well that he was gonna be ok, I guess he'd say yes.
Let me ask you was there a possibility for Jesus not to be resurrected? I think not, so all along he knew he was gonna end up in heaven (the perfect place where every day is Friday, joke!!).
That's the point. He may have been human at the time, and suffer just like any other person, even more if he carried every sin with him, but how much meaning can the death of an eternal being have.
An eternal being sacrificing 33 years of his “life” doesn't sound that meaningful to me. What's 33 years compared to eternity?

What's 33 years compared to eternity?

I wish more people would ask that question.

I am assuming your implication is that because Christ WOULD raise from the dead, that the sacrifice has no merit.
I fail to see how foreknowledge effects or minimizes the act. Even when I am certain of things, I can still face anxiety. It is part of my human nature. WE must understand that Christ was not part human. He was fully human. His confidence in his resurrection, was faith. Christ was born as a baby. Had to learn to walk, speak, etc. He was human. He felt pain, he experienced temptation, and He wrestled with the flesh. I can't rightly explain it. It is a mystery that blows my mind.

An eternal being sacrificing 33 years of his “life” doesn't sound that meaningful to me. What's 33 years compared to eternity?

I would hardly minimize the merit of Christ's sacrifice as having to only do with his tenure on Earth. Part of the sacrifice of Christ, was that He surrendered His position, to live as one of us. Say the CEO of a fortune 500 company stepped down from his position to fill the shoes of a worker who was ill and unable to perform his duties. The CEO knows that he is still the CEO, and at any time he can return to his office and title. Is his sacrifice meaningless? How would the workers feel about such a CEO? They would adore him. I understand what you are implying. I don't agree with it, and fail to see how you have made your case. I mean it really is an ungrateful position. Also consider if a billionaire paid off all of your debt, as a free gift. To him, it is only a fraction of a fraction of his wealth. Now, imagine if you said, "It's meaningless." "In comparison with all his abundant wealth, it hardly cost him a thing." My friend, this is what you are doing. You are trying to reduce the gift of God.

Phil 2:6-8
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

jlay wrote:

What's 33 years compared to eternity?

I wish more people would ask that question.

I am assuming your implication is that because Christ WOULD raise from the dead, that the sacrifice has no merit.
I fail to see how foreknowledge effects or minimizes the act. Even when I am certain of things, I can still face anxiety. It is part of my human nature. WE must understand that Christ was not part human. He was fully human. His confidence in his resurrection, was faith. Christ was born as a baby. Had to learn to walk, speak, etc. He was human. He felt pain, he experienced temptation, and He wrestled with the flesh. I can't rightly explain it. It is a mystery that blows my mind.

An eternal being sacrificing 33 years of his “life” doesn't sound that meaningful to me. What's 33 years compared to eternity?

I would hardly minimize the merit of Christ's sacrifice as having to only do with his tenure on Earth. Part of the sacrifice of Christ, was that He surrendered His position, to live as one of us. Say the CEO of a fortune 500 company stepped down from his position to fill the shoes of a worker who was ill and unable to perform his duties. The CEO knows that he is still the CEO, and at any time he can return to his office and title. Is his sacrifice meaningless? How would the workers feel about such a CEO? They would adore him. I understand what you are implying. I don't agree with it, and fail to see how you have made your case. I mean it really is an ungrateful position. Also consider if a billionaire paid off all of your debt, as a free gift. To him, it is only a fraction of a fraction of his wealth. Now, imagine if you said, "It's meaningless." "In comparison with all his abundant wealth, it hardly cost him a thing." My friend, this is what you are doing. You are trying to reduce the gift of God.

Phil 2:6-8
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Ok. Let me take both your examples:
“Say the CEO of a fortune 500 company stepped down from his position to fill the shoes of a worker who was ill and unable to perform his duties. The CEO knows that he is still the CEO, and at any time he can return to his office and title. Is his sacrifice meaningless? How would the workers feel about such a CEO? They would adore him”
If the CEO worked for me (regular worker) for a couple of weeks, and return to being CEO (Jesus Human for a time then GOD), I would be thankful, but adore him? No way.

“Also consider if a billionaire paid off all of your debt, as a free gift. To him, it is only a fraction of a fraction of his wealth. Now, imagine if you said, "It's meaningless." "In comparison with all his abundant wealth, it hardly cost him a thing."
Again, I would be really grateful, invite him over for dinner every couple of month's maybe, but wouldn't hang his picture on my wall, and live my life to please him.

.
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To me I read the words of Christ different and His death different than He just died and knew He would be raised up.

Christ did not die a "normal" death as humanity has done since Adam. His death was special because his death was caused, not by pain or agony, but by the shear weight of sin upon Him. If you study a bit about crucifixion, you'll notice that it was meant to be cruel and LAST days! Christ died within 6 hours! While Christ certainly endured pain as we know it, He died as a sinner would. He died apart from God and with no hope for life after. His cry of, "My God, my God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" is the cry of sinner doomed eternally. Christ died the SECOND death.

If Christ truely paid for sin, then He must've truely PAID for sin, that being a death proclaimed by God which there is no returning from - which some of us believe as anhilation or eternal torment in hell - (this is of no consequence here really). However since Christ was sinless AND God at the same time, He was able to conquer death and thus since He paid for sin is able to give it freely to those that believe in Him and thus have HIS perfection credited.

In the analogy of Wolverine, he didn't just save the life that one time, but the bullet Wolverine took needed to have ETERNAL implications on it to match that of the bullet Christ took for us.

Not only this, but GOD took on the form of His created... Think of it as a human taking on the form of a monkey to save all monkeys for eternity and GOD remaining a monkey never to be as He was.

A human CEO becoming a worker human is still a human. No real loss there.
Likewise a human billionaire is still a human and still a billionaire...
.
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Man,
They are just analogies. Not equal comparisons. What is the purpose of my analogy? It isn't to compare the work of the CEO, or paying off your debt as equal to dying on a cross. It isn't to compare the CEO as being equal to God. It is to show that things can and do have meaning, even under the conditions you criticize. The issue at hand is MEANING.

You certainly wouldn't say either (the work or the debt payment) are meaningless. That is the point of the analogies. You said Christ's life and death wasn't "meaningful." It is important to understand these basic things when handling or using analogies. Since you had attempted an analogy earlier in the thread, I thought I would relate to you in this way. It is apparent that you are not rightly reading the analogy.
I don't know what line of work you are in, but I can attest to how much employees value and employeer that is willing to step off his throne, and mix it up with the common man. I have seen adoration my friend.
Simply, does the work of the CEO have meaning?
Does the gift of the billionaire have meaning?

What kind of person would say they don't have meaning?

I am a civil engineer. And I do most of my work on the field with the “labor force”. So I know how a worker feels when he sees the “boss on the ground with them”.
I think I've exposed my idea wrong, my bad, I didn't mean it doesn't have meaning, every action has some meaning, the thing is how meaningful (That sounds kind of weird but I think you get the idea.)

For example:
Action one: I give my girlfriend a rose for valentines; is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.
Action two: You are starving and haven´t eaten in days; you find a piece of bread and knowing that it probably is the only thing you are going to eat for a while you decide to share it with another starving person. Is it an action with meaning? Sure it is.
Are both actions equally meaningful I don´t think so, I don't think anyone would think so, that's what I'm saying about Jesus death, how meaningful it really is?

Well let's see. The King and creator of the universe, The UNIVERSE, gave up His throne, to become a man like you, live on this earth without once sinning, then was arrested, beaten, humiliated and died the death of a criminal to pay the penalty of YOUR sin, and the sins of the world, so that you, an otherwise insignificant being on a spec of dust in the known universe, could have an eternal relationship with this creator, and inherit all the promises of His Kingdom.

Your problem? You don't know you are starving.

If you were standing on the deck of a boat and I handed you a life preserver, you might think, "this is meaningless."
However, if you just found out the boat had struck an ice berg and there were only moments before it would sink, your perspective and value in the life preserver would greatly change. Just because you fail to see the value, doesn't mean it isn't there.

What you need to know, Manfer, is that it wasn't just death...it was a death that meant that Christ bore the wrath of God that was meant for us.....us!! The wrath of God for sin.

On the cross, Christ cries out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"

Jlay's analogies are great, since they focus of the fact that the act still has meaning even if Christ knew ahead of time that all would be well.

However, where your thinking is mistaken is in the hunger example. You see, Christ's death and resurrection IS the banquet!! Christ did not withhold anything for us. He gave His all. There was nothing of your analogy of handing us a crust of bread while hiding the banquet.

Our greatest need is to be reconciled with Christ....He paid the price in full.

I'll say it again, the action has value, I see it, I just don´t think is that big of a deal (no offense) and I'm asking how valuable it is.

You saying:
“The King and creator of the universe, The UNIVERSE, gave up His throne, to become a man like you, live on this earth without once sinning, then was arrested, beaten, humiliated and died the death of a criminal to pay the penalty of YOUR sin, and the sins of the world, so that you, an otherwise insignificant being on a spec of dust in the known universe, could have an eternal relationship with this creator, and inherit all the promises of His Kingdom.”
Actually takes away more value, you are talking about a being capable of anything and everything we can and could ever imagine, so for him to “give up His throne, to become a man like you, live on this earth without once sinning, then was arrested, beaten, humiliated and died the death of a criminal” is as hard to do as creating a speck of dust.
Everyone can give any action any value they want, but looking at the action “objectively” (is that the right word?) how much value does it have?

Zoegirl:
He says he has been forsaken, but how forsaken are you when you know Dad is around the corner (well three days around the corner) waiting for you to take you to the best place ever. Being forsaken would have been staying dead, not seeing your dad ever again, that is being forsaken.

The way I see it is that God didn´t give up his son, he just misplaced him for a few years and then got it back. If he had lost something you could say, geez look how much he sacrificed for us, but the way it's told is just like, wow he's a cool guy, he did a great thing for us, and that's it.

Maybe you guys are right, maybe I'm the one not seeing the value of the action, but this is an issue I see a lot of atheist (if not all) have with the Jesus story (if they get past the posible existence of the Christian God), so that's why I'm being so thorough (again not sure this is the right word).

Actually takes away more value, you are talking about a being capable of anything and everything we can and could ever imagine, so for him to “give up His throne, to become a man like you, live on this earth without once sinning, then was arrested, beaten, humiliated and died the death of a criminal” is as hard to do as creating a speck of dust.
Everyone can give any action any value they want, but looking at the action “objectively” (is that the right word?) how much value does it have?

Perspective. Ask it this way:
"If it is THE truth, then how much value and meaning does it have to me?"
Eternal.
Yes you are talking about a being capable of anything. If God is real, what are you in perspective? Seriously. A spec on a spec, that last a blip of time in an ocean of vastness. Yet, this God is intimately concerned with you, and knows the number of hairs on your head.

Again, back to the life preserver analogy. The value is in the perspective.
You are trying to equate the value to something else. You are saying, that because God is all powerful, it really isn't that big of a deal for him to do a miraculous thing. Big deal. It didn't require much for the life preserver company to manufacture a life preserver. But if it is the one that is able to save my life then so what? I will cling to it for life. The value is in the fact that it is saving me, NOW.
You are what we say, straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
I just don't see that you have adequately defended this line of reasoning. In fact, speaking candidly, I think it lacks reason. What you are stating has absolutely zero to do with whether it is real, or has value to the individual. Yes, God was fully capable of orchestrating and instigating this plan. How hard was it for a being that is capable of anything? Well I don't really know how to answer that. And honestly don't see how it really matters. The fact still remains that He did it, out of His love, to satisfy justice, and set us free. And if it is true, then your eternal fate rest in this very thing.

Being forsaken would have been staying dead, not seeing your dad ever again, that is being forsaken.

That is an opinion. What proof can you offer, that for one to be forsaken, they must meet your criteria. Are you the one who establishes forsakeness?

I've given you several examples of value. You obviously have refused to take the position of recipient, and thus have a distorted perspective. Regarding the analogies I asked you, "What kind of person would say they don't have meaning?"
You've conveniently not answered. Please answer. And please, shoot straight.