Evidence for God from Science

In a debate I heard, Christopher Hitchens wonders why God really only revealed himself as far as we know in Genesis a few thousand years ago, yet early humans had short lives and developed large varities of pagan religions. So basically what he says is man did not know God for some 98,000 years. What do you make of this?

PaulB007 wrote:In a debate I heard, Christopher Hitchens wonders why God really only revealed himself as far as we know in Genesis a few thousand years ago, yet early humans had short lives and developed large varities of pagan religions. So basically what he says is man did not know God for some 98,000 years. What do you make of this?

One possibility is that humans didn't exist that long ago. Did he really trace back pagan religions to 98,000 years ago?

I am not familiar with history that far back to be honest, but its basically hearsay. I do remember reading that Hindu was around before Judaism. Things like this just make me wonder how it is possible if God revealed himself to Adam and Eve, that so many bizarre and strange religions could have came since that particular moment in history.

I wonder if things must have been oral tradition since written language would have taken time to have been invented?

PaulB007 wrote:I am not familiar with history that far back to be honest, but its basically hearsay. I do remember reading that Hindu was around before Judaism. Things like this just make me wonder how it is possible if God revealed himself to Adam and Eve, that so many bizarre and strange things could have came since that particular time..

If you mean bizarre and strange religions, man has a pretty wild imagination.

To me, it wouldn't make sense that the first signs of religion would not hint at the God of Judaism. Because if it isn't, I have to conclude that Judaism was something made up over time, which has a domino effect down to Christianity and invalidates it all. From a young earth viewpoint this would be easier to cope with, but if you go by scientific and paleantology principles, I get an uneasy feeling it all might be something Moses made up when he wrote Genesis.

PaulB007 wrote:To me, it wouldn't make sense that the first signs of religion would not hint at the God of Judaism. Because if it isn't, I have to conclude that Judaism was something made up over time, which has a domino effect down to Christianity and invalidates it all. From a young earth viewpoint this would be easier to cope with, but if you go by scientific and paleantology principles, I get an uneasy feeling it all might be something Moses made up when he wrote Genesis.

Paul, the earliest "religion" according to the Bible is when God made Adam. The Bible says in Genesis 2:8, that God put man in the garden. Man was walking with God. I don't know how much earlier in human history you can get than that.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But what I'm saying is how come Hindu came about if the truth of God was established first?

Perhaps hindu is the earliest recorded religion. The bible never specifies when man learned to record history. It could have been some time after the fall.

Religions have been distorted, forged or misinterpreted since man could think. It is entirely possible that when people spread out over the world, members of the new individual communities sought power through distorting religion or recreating it. Not to mention that during the times that God didn't meet with early humans (which would have probably been very long times early on, as it isn't recorded THAT much), a large number of early 'atheists' sprung up and may have convinced others of their ways.

Look at Jeroboam (1 Kings 12:27, 1 Kings 12:28) who decided that to retain power, he would create his own deities. He would have not been the only one to do this.

Telstra Robs wrote:Religions have been distorted, forged or misinterpreted since man could think. It is entirely possible that when people spread out over the world, members of the new individual communities sought power through distorting religion or recreating it. Not to mention that during the times that God didn't meet with early humans (which would have probably been very long times early on, as it isn't recorded THAT much), a large number of early 'atheists' sprung up and may have convinced others of their ways.

Look at Jeroboam (1 Kings 12:27, 1 Kings 12:28) who decided that to retain power, he would create his own deities. He would have not been the only one to do this.

Thanks for the insight, it might have been part of the answer I was looking for. I will read some of the OT tomorrow and come back here and address a few other things if they come up.

PaulB007 wrote:In a debate I heard, Christopher Hitchens wonders why God really only revealed himself as far as we know in Genesis a few thousand years ago, yet early humans had short lives and developed large varities of pagan religions. So basically what he says is man did not know God for some 98,000 years. What do you make of this?

Basically and for simplification to answer this is from the flow of logic. Early Humans from Adam / Eve had children who were taught by their parents about Yahweh. Enoch was one such as were others mentioned in Genesis 4:3-32. From there they traveled into the world and due to sin fell away from the knowledge of God (note Romans 1:20, 21) and made other religions and deities.

Here is another point I heard mentioned from some Public Television on Ancient History many years back can't remember the Professor - English chap's name. He was around 60 and this was a popular show back in early 1990's.

Went something like this…

“Ancient people could refer to Family Units / clans and all their all members in their respective passed on oral histories while only mentioning the founder or leader and ignoring all the others and how long or many generations these lived. The tribe could be older than the leader and possibly been around longer but the passed on oral tradition only recounts the Leader's life years in later oral accounts. For example Leader 'HoHe produced 40 generations' but through the passage of time the oral tradition began to be read as Leader 'HoHe lived 40 years and begat....”

This mere speculation but should to be considered as well. I am not defending it but only mention it for discussion purposes. It needs testing and debate. It would be in keeping with the differences in how time was kept from the ancient times to current as well as the cultural difference of naming a leader of a dominate tribe / clan living so many years while family clan lives through several generation and is not mentioned very clearly...

Genesis 4 sense of time may not be the same as ours is today and may reflect a longer or shorter period of time than we realize but who knows outside of the Lord?

Let me get off this rabbit trial and back on track: Early Humans from Adam / Eve produced offspring not mentioned. These were all raised with an understanding of Yahweh but over the period of time and distance lost this knowledge. Due to sin they would logically fell away from the knowledge of God as Romans 1:20, 21 implies and thus made other religions and deities.

Therefore what we deem as the oldest religion may not really be the oldest at all but rather the first evidences of this falling away from the knowledge of God…
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Thanks B.W., this would make the most sense to me if it is how it all really happened. I just wonder what happened to those who lost the true God in their culture. I assume they'd be saved as they wouldn't have had a way to know the truth.

PaulB007 wrote:Thanks B.W., this would make the most sense to me if it is how it all really happened. I just wonder what happened to those who lost the true God in their culture. I assume they'd be saved as they wouldn't have had a way to know the truth.

It's called invincible ignorance.

What do you mean?

Byblos wrote:It's called invincible ignorance.

PaulB007 wrote:What do you mean?

God's grace can extend to those who, through no fault of their own, were not able to discern the knowledge of God nor know the Gospel of Christ.